Impacting Lives: Transitioning to Servant Leadership | Mosongo Moukwa | Episode 301

Scott McCarthy:
Sago, sir, welcome to the show. It’s so good to have you here.

Mosongo:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Scott. It’s a it’s a privilege. Thank you for having me on your show.

Scott McCarthy:
So we’re talking about, you know, being a leader of significance. Yep. So, I guess, out of the gate, you know, what does being a leader of significance even mean to the listener out there? What, you know, what what is that when we think of leader of significance?

Mosongo:
Yeah. This is actually a a great question, because, because you can think of leadership, in this way. You have, on one extreme, you have the transactional leaders. And then you have, you then you have the other the other side, you have what we’re calling, maybe servant or transformation. Now, transaction leadership, just to to give an example, years ago, I worked for a for a chief operating officer. And, when I went to see him, to ask him, he he was a he was a new new chief operating officer. So I went to him. I was leading a bigger department.

Mosongo:
So I went to him to ask him what his expectations were for for the position. So I thought he would like, tell me we need to do this and so on. But he told me he said, Mo Songo, you scratch my back, I scratch yours. So you cannot really find as extreme as as you can be there. So, so so so so so so that is one side of what, what leadership, one type of leadership. Now the leadership really is a set of being an action. So, it comes from from the values, that guys are decision behavior. It comes from the vision that you have for yourself.

Mosongo:
So, and then it shows into trust and and connection. Now the leadership of significance here is really one where you impact people’s heart and mind. It’s about, building relationship, expanding the quality of those relationship, and then making a lasting difference, opening doors that that really would lead to amazing amazing results. So what I find, Scott, in my career is that, when I would meet with the employees or manager who work with me after many years, when we meet, we never talk about, the market share. We never talk about, the sales that some of the new products or activity that we have generated. We never talk about, oh, we serve the company, so many $1,000,000. So But we always talk about the experience that we went through during some of those, activities. People will talk about, oh, I I enjoy what came came over for manufacturing and support this.

Mosongo:
It’s actually really great. Faculty and the people went to the manufacturing plant together trying to solve their issues. So so what what that told me is that really it’s not really about, about, about the outcome, but but it’s really about process through which people undergo, to achieve the outcome. So, so so really, Scott, what I’ve learned is that, human connection is actually the foundation of that. So when you put emotional connection at your foundation, you’re beginning to discover what people are capable of. You create a foundation for confidence that leads then to new and exciting things for people, for the company and and for yourself as well. And you motivate others to achieve, something that matters to them and, and, to the company, to the company. So so so that’s really what it is.

Mosongo:
So it’s a it’s a bit of, you find characteristic of what we call a servant leadership, which is focusing on development of the videos as well as transformation, right, which is on inspiring employees to move forward. But it’s really touching the hearts of mine.

Scott McCarthy:
Yeah. There’s definitely right now a lot of talk about transformational leadership, servant leadership, and then all kinds of mixtures of there within. I like to look at leadership styles in the spectrum. So you talked about that transactional. You know what? Sometimes the transactional leadership’s needed. Like, sometimes Yep. The employee just needs a good smack in the butt and, like, hey. Like, this is what’s best for you right now.

Scott McCarthy:
And there are times you can be a little bit, you know, hands off. Hey. Yes. I like I like for you guys to go a little team here, a little tiger team quote. Think about this problem. Come back to me with your ideas and solutions and stuff like this. Right?

Mosongo:
Yes.

Scott McCarthy:
And then there’s a whole range in between. But I you talked about one thing, and that was really, having that emotional connection with your team and your people at the core of, you know, of of the style. And for the leaders out there, a lot of them is like, well, how do I actually go about doing that properly? Because you kinda hit hinted that earlier. Most leaders, they’re focused on, you know, what has been the latest TPS report numbers and this report numbers, and what are the latest sales figures, and, how do we do with the launch of this product or this project and all this stuff? But you kinda hinted that, you know, that’s not how to go about making these emotional connections. So how do leaders actually start with the emotional connections with their people?

Mosongo:
Yeah. This is, this is a great question, Scott. I mean, what really, people, people are looking for? They’re looking for a sense of belonging. So that’s number 1. I remember years ago, early in my career, there was, one one chemist who was working, in my group. Great chemist, great invention, and whatnot. He was extremely passionate about his work. So one morning by the coffee shop, I asked him, what is it about this place that really you you enjoy? So I thought he was going to talk about, oh, you’re giving us a great project and so on.

Mosongo:
Oh, cool. What he told me was that, actually, I like I like coming here because during lunchtime, I can go and they ping pong with Mike. Because that’s the time really we get to talk and so on. So so so so what what that, what that says that there is that sense of affiliation. So that was really, so that was really, extremely extremely extremely important. The second thing that the people are looking for is psychological safety. I remember there was there was one young lady, many years ago. She used to be in marketing, then she go and transfer into my group.

Mosongo:
And then, as we get to to know each other and beginning to talk, and, and then she told me that, when she was, working in that particular department, initially, a supervisor or a boss used to give her a lot of phrases, bring her in meetings, and whatnot. And then little by little, she began to see that, there are a number of meetings where she did she was no longer invited and whatnot. And then a rumor began to circulate that she was not performing. She was not performing well and so. So so so so I asked her. I said, did you go to them or to him and then ask her why is it that I’m no longer invited in those meetings? She said no. I I said why? She said because I did not even feel safe to go and ask that question. So psychological safety really is is something that is extremely important.

Mosongo:
And, actually, scientists, they have, that have shown that psychological safety plays a powerful role. So, so because it allow people, in terms of failing well, it allows people to ask for help, when they are, when they are in over their head. So psychological safety is extremely important. The other one that is important is that, people need to feel, to feel value. For example, I remember, just as an example here, there was one one of my manager was, was, one day I was just working in the in in the corridor, in the hallway, and I saw him, and then I told him I said, hey, Jim. Just just to let you know, I did not forget you. That that’s all I said. I did not forget you.

Mosongo:
And then, and then, a few days later, he told me that that comment by itself made him feel value. So so so we all know that it’s a fact of life and and leadership for that matter. So when people are noticed, they they they know they know someone cares. And, and they they and and and they feel value. And when they feel value, they believe that, that they are they they they are they are needed. They’re part of something big. So those are the 3 the 3 elements. Now the way the way to to do that and to answer your earlier question is that you as a leader, you have to you have to to know how you have to build trust trust within within your unit, within whatever, community or group or department that that that that you’re part.

Mosongo:
So so so that comes from, the leader making the, the effort, to understand people at a deeper level. So, so so for that, your leader, you have to be, first of all, busy. Nobody’s going to somebody who’s who’s invisible. So don’t be in your office there. The door is closed, giving people the message that you don’t want to be talked. So so so so those are those are a number of elements. There are a number of juncture that, us as a leader, we come across people where we have the opportunity to connect with them, and to inquire about, to inquire about them, to show that genuine curiosity about them. So that’s what I would say.

Mosongo:
We start there.

Scott McCarthy:
Yeah. So much there. The sense of belonging, the psychological safety, the feeling valued, like, those are 3 huge ones. The psychological safety one, I’ll tell you, like, I’ve that’s probably one of the topics we talk about the most here on the podcast. I had a a former, a PhD doctor by the name of Tim Clark, and he wrote the book of the 4 stages psychological safety on podcast, quite some time ago. And he’s probably one of the most referenced, podcast episodes to date, which is which may sound, funny to the audience when they think about, like, by day, I’m an army officer. Yet here I am talking about psychological safety, which, you know, many people would find probably, you know, interesting and funny at the same time. But I like the value part that you ended with because I actually have I had a very similar experience today just at work.

Scott McCarthy:
I saw one of my employees and walked up to her and said, hey. How is your summer going? Yeah. Stuff like this. And she had a bunch of stuff going on in her life. Well, I won’t share it. But she did send me a note later saying, hey. Sorry to kinda offload on you about my summer, but but thank you for asking. Right? It was that last bit that kinda stood out and connected with your story, and it’s just like that little thing.

Scott McCarthy:
It doesn’t take much. Right? It’s just that, hey. How are you? And I say the connection with your people isn’t about work. It’s about everything else besides work. That’s how you connect with individuals.

Mosongo:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. You’re you’re you’re absolutely you’re absolutely right. And as you’re beginning to connect with them, that’s how you’re beginning to, to also build that trust. So be because if you don’t start connecting with them, then you don’t create that space where you could talk about much, much bigger things. So you have to start with those small small things.

Mosongo:
So so you you are you are absolutely right. I am not surprised that, that that employee of yours reacted that way because because now the individual failed to value that that that that that they are now part of something much, much bigger. I’ll just it’s me doing my job there and then go.

Scott McCarthy:
But, you know, I do that once and that’s good enough. Right? And, you know, at this point time? It has to

Mosongo:
be it has to be persistent curiosity. That’s how I like

Scott McCarthy:
to say it.

Mosongo:
It has to be persistent persistent curiosity. So don’t just talk to people once, and then make sure you talk to them again. But but but it has to be continuous. And so it has to be just, something that individual that I think all of us, we have that capability, to develop that. 1 just has to be conscientious, particularly when you’re a leader.

Scott McCarthy:
Awesome. I love I love it so far. So here at the podcast, I talk about 3 domains of leadership. I talk about leading yourself, the individual leader, leading your team, I e the individuals, much as what our stories were just sharing. And the 3rd domain is leading your organization. I’d really like to kinda change gears and tap into the third one right now because no doubt as a leader of significance, you wanna lee you know, you wanna have that impact on your organization, which is more of the, you know, the company itself, the the entity, not not, you know, the institution. Right? So how does a leader who’s like, okay. I wanna be a leader of significance, but how do I actually do that for the organization? I hear you for the people, but how about the institution?

Mosongo:
Yes. Yes. Yeah. No. This is, this this is actually a great, a great, a great question, Scott, because because, as much as we have, as individual, we have, we have a life. Organization also, organization also have a life. You know, so so so so like the and and I’ll come to the organization just now. But, but, at the individual, you have to find what is it there about individual that bring them to life.

Mosongo:
So so for that, one way of finding that is, is, is trying to to have individual to remember stories, where really they they they they they they they they they came alive, so to speak. One exercise I did, many years ago, I actually learned it from a professor when I was doing my MBA, coop, Cooperrider from Case Western, is that, I had employees, you put them in pairs, and one would interview the other, asking them about what are those stories that will either fell alive. And then the the interviewer now comes back to the group, and then he or she has to relate the story to others. So so so so so that’s how you’re also beginning to learn what is really, bringing those individual, you know, a lot. And I’ll get your organization just now. But, for example, for one individual, the story that, that he told the interviewer, his his colleague, is that, they were having problem in manufacturing. And, and, and then the people in manufacturing, they called him to go there, and they’re trying to solve the problem. And, and and and really, it felt like, the the fact that they asked him to go there, you know, and tried to he felt like it was a honor and to be asked.

Mosongo:
So he went there, and then he solved the problem and so on, and then he was extremely happy. So for him so if you put him in that situation where now he has to be called upon to help and use expertise to solve the problem, that was something that brought him that brought him to to life. So there are many stories like that, and I encourage those who are managers out there, to try that exercise. Take the people, put them in pair, one interviewing the others, and then the interviewer now has to come and tell the story of the interviewee. So I which which which is always always always always very soon because we learn from stories. Stories, they can they they they they can be revealing. And they they showcase things that, detail that are important to us. So, so, so so so then then then you learn.

Mosongo:
So that’s at the individual level. Now you can also do that at the at the organization level. At the organization level, because as I said, organization also have a line. So so one exercise one can do is is to ask employees, What what really is, is, is, is is is bringing this organization to life. And and and and we’ll be surprised. For example, people may say that when we have one group activity, let’s go and and try to solve this problem, but but it’s crucial for the company. The organization bring to life because everybody’s full. So you need to try to extract extract extract extract extract that that that one as well.

Mosongo:
And and I find that was, that was also, that was also, extremely powerful. I hope I answered your question for your listener.

Scott McCarthy:
Yeah. No. It’s it’s actually a really interesting, concept and and exercise to do, which is I I may actually steal and use as I’m planning a kind of a retreat couple days with my senior team, my senior leadership team at work. Maybe that’s an exercise because I wanna do one of those team building exercise right out the gate, and maybe this is one I’ll take and and steal from you. No. It’s

Mosongo:
no. Try it. It’s it’s an extremely powerful because stories

Scott McCarthy:
Yeah.

Mosongo:
Actually reveal ourselves, when we are telling our stories.

Scott McCarthy:
Absolutely. When we come alive. So when we do this at the organizational level, what I’m hearing from you is that we hear the stories of the organization and the effects it’s having, the impacts it’s having. And through that, we learn, okay. This is how I’m, you know, having a significance or I’m, you know, having a significant impact on the organization as a whole. Is that is that kinda along the lines of what you’re getting at there?

Mosongo:
Yes. Yes. Because what you want to do is you want to discover the organization through the eyes of the individual, to understand it as a system. So so the individual is a part of the system. So what is it that really making sense here? And and to gain this insight, the great insight into those element, those factor, and it and and the feeling. Because, because feelings are always very important in organization. Because that’s actually sometimes becomes, the the missing link many times. So so, therefore, when they are going to understand that why the people engage or they disengage.

Mosongo:
So so so that really help. So for that, you ask open ended question. But as it relate to the organization, what energizes you in here? What the energizes you in? You know, if you were to, if you were to seal, if you had the seal of of the company, what are the changes you will bring in? So, so apart from those those questions, there may also be the others here that that, that could be somewhat open ended question, to to get when you’re beginning to ask those questions, as far as they relate to the organization, then you begin it to have a sense of what kind of connection those employee they have to the organization as a system.

Scott McCarthy:
No. It makes absolute sense. So we’ve talked about, you know, kinda like the basics of what it means to be a leader of significance and, you know, values and making people feel valued and heard and the, you know, the understanding of sense of belonging and stuff. We talked to our teams and empowering them. We talked you know, we just finished up with the organization. Now, you know, everything has an n. Right? A leader’s tender within a team or an organization has an n. So I’d love to hear your perspective on how leader significance, you know, gets ready to end their time.

Scott McCarthy:
Maybe, you know, maybe they’re found somewhere else. They’re moving on. Maybe the team is dissolving because it was like a project. Maybe they’re retiring. You know, there’s 50,000,000 different scenarios out there, but how would how does a leader of significance end their tender and kind of prepare slash move on?

Mosongo:
Well, I I I think, I think we all want to as a leader, we all want to leave the organization better than what we find in that. So so so that’s the aspiration. We want to leave the place better than we find. So so for that, that means that, that that means that, you need, you need to develop others. You need to develop others. You because at the end, leadership is not a solo venture. Leadership, is is really about about building a legacy by developing other leaders. So so so so so so so that’s really that’s really what what what you do.

Mosongo:
And then as as you as you are beginning to develop those leader actually, those are the people who are going to carry on your legacy. So so even if you move on to other things, you you you you have turn you have turn it enough that that that I know from experience never really come back. There is always some residual energy there that you brought to them because you have developed the leaders. You have, developed individuals. You have energized the organization. You have set up a great vision of the organization. This is which has been a shared vision for the organization. And then now you can then let it let it run.

Mosongo:
Because others, they could actually carry the. Did did I answer your question there, Scott?

Scott McCarthy:
Yeah. No. No. Fantastic.

Mosongo:
Yeah. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy:
And I would love if you want to just expand a little bit further on how, you know, you foresee going about developing others. Like Yeah. How does a leader significance do that?

Mosongo:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, I mean, developing others, really, it can be tricky, complex, and it could be uncomfortable at times. So it’s really a journey of exploration as called. So which may be punctuated by by by by, I would say, moment of discovery. So so so while on that journey, you have to maintain the growth mindset. Now you can develop people at different level.

Mosongo:
So develop people by providing them opportunities. And and, there was a there was a one fellow who worked with me a number of years ago, and I send him, we were doing a project with a Japanese company. And, and, our job was to transfer the technology from Japan to the US. And, so I went to this individual and I asked him whether in fact he could, he could be sent to to Japan. This was some somebody was in the laboratory, low profile. He did not always want to be seen, but he was a hard hardworking fellow. I always felt that this fellow may may need, may need some some challenges. So so so so so we send him there.

Mosongo:
Initially, he was very reluctant, but but finally, we addressed his concern, one of which was that they, I’m going to leave my wife here and so on. I said, no. Listen, we’re going to arrange for you to come home regularly every so many months, and then your wife also can go there. So in that case, then we’ll not do too much of service. So we address some of those those those things. But but but we explained to him that really the purpose of of that particular project, which was for him to bring the technology and train the people, and we have to get it into manufacturing. So he went there. When he came back, he came back extremely energized.

Mosongo:
He learned the skills of that technology so much so that he became the de facto expert in our organization. So he was a junior member in the team, but he was there, giving presentation to marketing, teaching them the technology, how we should be marketing, and then he also went to the plans and implemented it. So that is at that at that level. You can also do it, even for managers. Years ago, I had a manager. He was, he was, in charge of marketing. So they transferred me to my group just to give him exposure and expand his capabilities. And then, this fellow, initially, I wanted to implement a number of things in his group, but but but the people did not respond well to it.

Mosongo:
So he came to me, and then, and then and then, I asked him, I said, what’s going on with your team? And he could not really articulate. What happened there is that, actually, he was trying to apply the same set of, behavior he used to have in that, in that earlier job to the new circumstances. You cannot always apply the same tools in a new environment. So that was a great lesson for him, great discovery. Once he internalize that, then now he was able to bring along. So one can develop those individual at multiple less. But but but you as a leader, you have to be conscientious that, one of your primary job is to develop it because then because the project project will always get that because you can pressure people. You can, do a number of things.

Mosongo:
The project will get that. But the question is that have the people developed? Have they learned skills? Have they have they grown individual? Because then in the future, they can even be much more productive than they were initially. So so so so so that’s really, that’s really what, what what I would say as far as as far as the developing to build on. So you have to create those opportunities. So that’s really what I mean.

Scott McCarthy:
I say the project will always get done, but at what cost? Yeah. But at what cost? The cost of the funds that were associated to it and the time, or was it the cost of people’s trust, belief in the organization, and their drive to stay within it, or are they going off and looking for somewhere else to work?

Mosongo:
And when you develop people, actually, they add value to the organization and to the

Scott McCarthy:
Absolutely. They add value to the Sango, this may be a great conversation. Before we wrap up here, is there anything that we missed that we should have touched on you feel like for the audience out there? Any topics

Mosongo:
at all? I would say that, the people, they should start first first learning as a leader. We really need to start learning how to ask to ask great questions, which is something I I continually I continually try to do. Learning to ask great question. You know, having that that that, that curiosity. So, so so that one is is extremely, is extremely important and it’s something that we have to be conscientious. Because what what I think is that, when you are asking, a good question, you you are you are taking a posture of humility. Essentially, you are you are confessing in a way that you don’t know and and you want to know more. Right? You want to learn.

Mosongo:
And and, and you’re also honoring the other the the other person. So let’s let’s learn to ask to ask a good good question. Let’s let’s avoid asking, asking, closed question. We we we we have to learn to ask open ended question because that calls for for the other individual. So so that’s, so so so that’s one thing. If nothing, I would say the manager will need to start learning that and beginning to show that persistent curiosity, to other people.

Scott McCarthy:
I’ve been saying for quite some time, the leader’s job is no longer to have all the answers, but to ask the right questions. Yes. Yes. So thank you for the confirmation of that, sir. Before we wrap up here, you know, where can people find you, follow you, be part of your journey, sir? It’s all about you right now.

Mosongo:
Yeah. Yeah. They can, follow me on I’m on LinkedIn. They can do for me there. And then those who are listening there, if they go to, .com, they can actually download the, free chapter of my book. So, so I’m looking forward always to get, to to to get, some feedback there. And, and, I’m actually working on on on another book, which is geared towards small business owners. So if there are some small business owners out there that are listening, they could, I would love to interview them for the 2nd edition of the of that book.

Mosongo:
So for that, just, just go to my, my website. Shoot me a note, and then I could schedule some interview interview.

Scott McCarthy:
Awesome. And for you to listen, as always, it’s easy. Just go to the show notes of this episode, and those links are gonna be there. Sango, again, thank you for taking time in your schedule. Thank you for, you know, bringing, your your perspective on this, you know, super important topic. I’m sure the audience is definitely enjoying it.

Mosongo:
Yeah. No. Thank you. Thank you, Scott. It’s been, it’s been it’s been an honor for me to be in your show. Great conversation. I enjoyed, I enjoyed your your your question. We’re very pointed.

Mosongo:
I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for the Perfect.

Scott McCarthy:
Thank you.