Most leaders don’t know what organisational culture is. They know it’s the defining factor in performance, but are unsure how to identify or change it, despite the profound impact it has on every single aspect of the organisation. Culture is the rules of belonging. Change those rules and you’ll change your culture. Change your culture and you’ll change your results.
Fiona Robertson is an expert in organisational culture, leadership and teamwork who holds an MBA from London Business School and is a graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors (GAICD) and the Institute of Executive Coaching and Leadership. She is the former Head of Culture for the National Australia Bank, has worked in and consulted to dozens of blue-chip corporates and all levels of government in Australia, and coached numerous senior executives in large and small organisations. Other clients have included the Australian Graduate School of Management (AGSM), ANZ Bank, NCR, Monash College, Swinburne University, RMIT Online and IBM. Fiona is now an independent culture change keynote speaker, facilitator and coach for senior executives.
During this interview Fiona and I discuss the following topics:
- How culture and belonging will help leaders achieve peak performance
- How to drive cultural change in using belonging principles
- How to connect a disconnect between cultural expectations and actions
- How leaders can engage their people to drive cultural change
- How to enable subordinates to bring forward ideas
- How to manage the differences in interpretation
If you are interested in learning more about Fiona’s resources be sure to check out the following links:
- Weblink: https://fionarobertson.com/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/fionaculture
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fionarobertson-culture/
- Buy a copy of “Rules of Belonging” on Amazon
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The following is an AI generated transcript for reference purposes only.
Jonah, walk into the shows are good to have you here today
Speakerthanks. I might scott it’s great to be here.
SpeakerSo, let’s dive in, shall we we are discussing your book, your first book that I do recall, bred, ah direct, let’s, let’s, let’s dive in let’s go hard, let’s go fast. So how is this your the ideas behind the book in the book? Gonna help leaders you help them hit. The peak prefer
Speakerit’s when it comes to the organization and the organizational culture
Speakeryeah great question, sire pretty much every later that I ever talk to will tell me enthusiastically how important culture is
Speakerthey they never argue with his point. Yes, it’s very important they’ll often use that phrase, unique culture, it’s strategy for breakfast.
SpeakerIn my experience there are very few genuinely know what the word culture actually is.
SpeakerI know it’s, you know the way we do things around here, all those kinds of in a slightly esoteric concepts, but they find it really hard to pinpoint exactly what the thing is and therefore how to identify what it is now how to figure out what they wanted to be and how to get from me to be so um. What I do
Speakerooh in the book is just go back through some of the sort of evolution of the human species and talk about the fact that our our brains have essentially not changed for about eighty thousand years and back then we had to be a member of a group in order to survive. Good
Speakerall mess lies hierarchy of needs. That role told taught at school. It says that food, water and shelter is the most basic native human being all the latest neuroscience is telling us that that’s actually wrong and that the most basic native human being is to belong in a group, and so we have this brain in our heads. That believes that, if we don’t belong, we
Speakerwill die, and then that just means that when we joined a new group, we have evolutionary super powers that allow us to identify what the successful behavior is in that group that we’ve joined and we, whether we know it or not. We slowly start to adopt that behavior as our own. So that’s why I
SpeakerI define culture as the rules of belonging in a group and I think, once you’ve defined it. That way, suddenly latest can go ha that thing that we’ve always been talking about this culture would. If I now know it’s the rules of belonging, I can actually start to see what those rules might be
Speakerand ask myself. The question
Speakeris the behavior that we want to encourage more of behavior that earns belonging in my team is what earns belonging in my team. What loses belonging in my team and start to actually see what they’re in sort of I think of it a bit like in if you living in the matrix, and you don’t know you live
Speakerin the matrix, then you don’t say anything because you don’t. Neither is anything to see, but as soon as you come across this idea that that culture is the rules of belonging, then you kind of start to see it everywhere
Speakerand once you’ve seen it, then you can make sensible decisions about it, figure out where you want it to be and stop moving from a to b.
SpeakerLovitz, that’s what’s good areas, the room is circular, but it’s it’s very interesting, be fun for me personally, because it was my side also do this on the side or record this on a tuesday evening,
Speakerjustice of wonders workers, those nuclear me officers, and one of the things that you mentioned was interesting to me because russian, how are we brew? Sewn into the organizations are really for me. I go back to what you can and want to redo a boot camp. We literally shake people’s heads.
SpeakerTake my older, older, close to my mother. Clothes, of course
Speakerwear a uniform and avoid it works. I and we indoctrinate people into her organizational culture. That way.
SpeakerIt’s our honest, not every company authors could go through the same magic overall is what we do in a hurry, but still it’s all on it’s summer event makes so much sense when you break it down frame it in the way and the firebird
Speakeryou got found. The final interesting part is that they’re a whole need of belonging in it bien the basic human need and niagara’s new, and I agree with absolute do with resources, because I’ve I’ve seen. It is well on the research that I’ve read some of the stuff that they need. The bowl
Speakeron defiling their nets, wanted phase out. We drive home when people come in and, like know, you’re part of the stem new family, and we were little tougher
Speakerwell, you know it’s. It’s really interesting. To contrast what you describe about that sort of military experience with coming into some other kind of yeah commercial organization, it may be more subtle, but it’s still there. You know. So if you think about that magical time between knowing you got the job and showing up on day one the kind of stuff that goes
Speakerto I’ve, asked people thousands of people now, this question- I walk, goes through your mind in that little window of time between getting the job and showing up on day one the kind of stuff people worry about. Is you know what time should I show up? What time is it ok to go home? What should I wear? Will they like me? Essentially, the questions are: will I fit in to this group- and
Speakerwe have these evolutionary super powers that allow us to identify the tiniest nuance of what earns belonging in a group and we slowly but surely in you turn up on your first day at eight thirty and halfway through the day, you figure out that everybody else has been there since eight o’clock, your shown up at eight o’clock on data right. We all do
Speakerthis. The military just doesn’t very overtly, but everybody. Every organization has these in a written and unwritten spoken and unspoken rules, and we human beings are incredibly finely attuned to it. So I often find it’s. I don’t whether musings the right way, but often find it interesting that people say to me
Speakerall. Look if I just hire more ethical people, I’ll have a more ethical culture or if I just time or creative people, I’ll have a more innovative culture. And of course, what happens is that that individual joins the system and tries to fit in, and one of two things will happen if they’re very, very different from them
Speakermajority either. They will eventually go native, so eventually adopt the behavior that is successful in the group in order to fit in and be accepted and belong, or they will leave and the law the leaf through their iron in their own decision that that this isn’t working or they get kind of rejected by the immune system
Speakerof the organization such incredibly difficult to change your culture by recruiting in one by one.
SpeakerYou can’t change the system by adding one tiny little ingredient to it.
SpeakerThe system will win every single time,
Speakeryeah you’re, talking to god a beast of a system written exactly what you said. People leave base of one of two two ways: the altar is called voluntary release as gold discharge they were designed. Will discharge amassed one of the two laser on a it taught you listen to them,
Speakerwalter so and in a rainbow uk, just magically, add solum and expect the the organization and the culture to change, because people like it does not individuals, change organizations closer to call the organization as a whole needs to change and it needs to be driven from the top
Speakerstarted. So, let’s, let’s dive deeper into this in your you know, how do we as readers first year, the eyes of your belonging to dr organizational change in oregon and culture- know that just hire more? Like you said, more ethical was culture older,
Speakerum, you more ethical or what’s called creative people is going to drive a culture of creativity in organization.
SpeakerYeah at at this system will win, as you say, look um. The most important thing is to first notice: you can choose if you don’t further notice, you’ve got a notice, water and belonging in the place. You’ve got it then figure out whether the things that earn belonging. Ah the things you want to see more of in order to
Speakerto successfully execute whatever strategy you have, and it doesn’t matter what organization or what out what industry you’re in. If you have a strategy without the culture to execute it, then you’ve just got a piece of paper so notice first, water and belonging around he had then do the work to figure out. Is that
Speakerbehavior what we actually need more of in order to execute this strategy? If no, then what behavior do we need to see more off to successfully execute this strategy and then, when you’ve identified that behavior, you then need to shift those underlying rules of belonging. Now, how do you do that?
SpeakerOh you do that by making sure that they knew behavior, that you’re seeking is socially safer than the old behavior, which is a really easy thing to say, and a really hard thing to do. Such a simple idea, but it’s not an easy one, so it’s gotta be safer to do the new than it was to do the ah
Speakerold, socially safer,
Speakerand it’s interesting right. So you do it’s gonna be socially safer, born with faith. That organization will just naturally go towards others, us through beings. We we bike to be safe, like the cozy and warm, but I just maybe there could be a part of why we don’t go to or such. So why is it that we don’t talk,
Speakergo towards it already safer option, because safety according to the human brain is belonging? So if, if you’re telling me on a poster or on a you know a powerpoint presentation to do behaviour, a bad behavior be is actually
Speakerthe thing that earns me belonging, I will do behaviour be. I won’t dive, don’t care what it says on your poster r. I k what it says in your powerpoint presentation I’ll. Do what actually earns me belonging in the real world, so I’m making it true that the new behavior will earn me greater belonging than the old is the
Speakerhard part to do? Ah, but but firstly, you’ve got to figure out what that is, so that you can then explain it to the leaders who need they. They are the ones that need to be able to indicate what is going to earn belonging around here through their approval through the way the whole group operates on there,
Speakerour interpretation of behavior, it’s gotta be right that the new behavior is more positive than the old as a say, easy to say hard to do right so treasure understand. Hercules was a shock. A shelter campaign first begun a job or use your analogy of ah show up. At my say, nine thirty.
SpeakerHe knows one is their nine children, children, I say, ninth and in a locker and see the company’s new posters and minutes and all the stuff of your family family’s important measure. Your family time, eccentric ceremony up wealth yoga industry was my short majority, did ones because of your skin
Speakerrobot same kids and all the stuff is emotional slit, your maximum short and nine thirty. Do it? Why? No? No! No! No! We started at nine, so that’s kind of what you’re getting at right. Exactly right so on in I or or even if the boss says: ah nine thirty’s, fine,
Speakerbut every time you turn up at nine thirty, every one in the room looks at you and damn it. I asked you if you brought the afternoon newspaper with you or make some kind of crack, that makes it abundantly clear that you have lost some belonging by doing that behavior then you’re gonna shop at nine, no matter what it says on that post
Speakernow makes absolute sense are so obviously this is a problem pointing- and I would think of, I was a senior leader of the company, the organization and don’t try to persist. Your family is important mentality and note taker families that you come to oregon and take care of this family here type biology,
Speakerand then you you get out you you sure these things or you find over someone quits. Because of those reasons, like you said, oda snickering a little comments. The young, which turns into a negative atmosphere which then spins of other problems culturally as well, and a five serves a senior leader than your.
SpeakerHow do you go about fixing this because, obviously make I’m same one thing, but the company’s doing something right?
SpeakerIs this disconnect yeah and look on the way to do it is to make it explicit so bring it into the light? So have exactly that conversation that says we say family first and yet, every time somebody tries to do that. They are essentially shunned by the group, and we know that we have to change this, so we’re gonna call
Speakerpull it out when we say that disconnect am I gonna, do it over and over and over and over again until the behavior that we want to see, in fact, is the behavior that was approved of around here. So that’s that’s where couch and leaves it lives in the interpretation of behavior rather than the behavior itself, and- and let me just
Speakergive you a little bit of an example to try and bring this to life a little bit sire. Am I once worked in a company where it was completely normal for the most senior person in the rain to leave the meeting before the end, and that was because in that particular culture, I’m busy equaled important and stir every time they left the meeting be
Speakerbefore the end. Everyone would sort of nod in our understanding. Yes, of course, they have to meet a little busy in either very important infected by stayed to the end. The people would kind of raise their eyebrows as if to say, don’t you have somewhere that you have to rush off to me, and I like, I knew why the board month,
SpeakerI’m so when they did leave before the end there they’re stated increase their belonging was, was improved and I’ve worked in other companies way that identical behavior leave. The meeting before the end would have been interpreted as incredibly unprofessional and clearly this is a person who doesn’t respect the time of their color
Speakereggs. Doesn’t care about making next steps or accountability is clear, and you know after they left the room. Everyone will just kind of frowning roll their eyes and go wow. That’s really young yeah unfortunate, so identical behavior leave the meeting before the end, but interpreted completely differently by those two organizations, in one
Speakercase, sedan belonging in the other. It didn’t. That is where culture leaps in the interpretation of behavior said the responses about the people to the behavior, not in the behavior itself. So if you see people sniggering when somebody comes at nine thirty, that’s the behavior that you need to address is the sniggering huh
Speakerto make sure that everyone understands that actually showing up at nine thirty to take care of your kids is something we think is really great around here, and it helps of course, if the most senior leaders walk that talk, you will have heard that phrase before in our if they drop off their kids at nine thirty. Am
Speakerthat really helps because everyone kind of guys up all copy sniggering too much if the boss is doing
Speakerit’s like, we almost need to start snicker, snicker
Speakeryeah exactly completely yet completely flip. It run ups and downs. I know you’re snickering at the person, isn’t much. How dare you stick around for signing know and make them feel actually the one that is uncle for bianca,
SpeakerI personally rhythm, a disapproval hundred percent and and don’t in army guy. I really like three overdose on it, because we generally do well in that area.
SpeakerI have no issues. Is the you money? People, though, what you think when, when things are right,
Speakersometimes due to a fall, but definitely oh, oh. I bet that is funny that you mention the the story of the two to four companies, leaving meetings, early earth and and how it was viewed.
SpeakerBut it works enough for forward with another organization. So every culture you shall find it’s early an offline. It’s earlier tenants players like literally a unwritten rule in military culture, because this is how we do business, so our chauffeur when you short prepared for being a for this and one of the another organization
Speakerover government organization. I worked a lot with my job, their organizational cultures that you showed up late to meetings, fine, for the exact same reason that your dogma that people leave early because owed were so busy and off hand show up on time. So I own a hundred times at recent airway last night
Speakerannual ten o’clock and wanted results of this meeting. Him were were their heads they’re not here yet, and we knew an guys. Will it sit round ko chun doo lang. Whatever waiting is I thought after ten sort of thing ten after ten went out, russell start packing up and then also made it wanted. Osorio sarkozy sit down.
SpeakerOh that’s a major fall on us. You shall not play tennis way to a meeting at youthful outlook for tat. Tat was actually daily life, as I had. If I started working for that company, I reckon they would take you about a week before you started showing up to him outside to meanings too.
SpeakerI have not had twenty years of service this month.
SpeakerIt’s gonna take a lot to drive out of showing up at early only
Speakerso, let’s, let’s talk a little bit harder. Let’s, let’s talk a little deeper on the leader volker you mention it there, a bit earlier in the reader needs to use the bike sample, essentially so water. So many other ways leaders can ensure that the author, making the sensible
Speakerlonging and they’re driving this culture changes in the organization you could. Ultimately, we we want to help. It prevents, has name podcast. He performs leadership. Why there are organizations p perform seo driver who put up major teams hit achieve at peak performance state where everyone is firing on all cylinders, but these differences, the only
Speakerall cultural disconnects, are definitely not going to help us get there. So what are some other things? Leaders out there? Can you either do or be cognizant of? I wanna try to make these changes.
SpeakerSire. I like to think of ah different types of conversations we have with our team is being either a balcony conversations or dance floor conversation. So, if we’re down on the dance floor, doing the doing working in the team and in doing the daily work, if we’re having a balcony conversation, we’re kind of looking
Speakerdown from above on the team were working on the team. So I encourage a lot more balcony conversations than we typically would do in a normal organization, and what I mean by that is when you have a team meeting instead of diving into that, has ever on doing today. What’s on tap plate in iowa the work in progress, type dance,
Speakerfull meeting, I encourage leaders to have a. How are we doing as a team conversation op’s? I were working on the team conversation, our balcony conversation and part of that conversation can be hey. I want to work on our team culture, the first step in doing that is noticing what it is. So can we,
Speakerover the next couple of team meeting, start to make a list of what other behaviors that earn belonging in this team and what are the behaviors that lose belonging? So you start to bring the unspoken into the spoken. You know things in it in the dark. Bring them out into the light and examined them, and once you’ve done that, then you can start to evolve
Speakeranyway, as a group which of these behaviors are helping us in which a hindering awesome. And what do we want to change once you identify what you want to change, then you can talk together about okay, so the only way we’re gonna change, this particular behavior is, if doing it, the new way earns greater belonging than doing it the old way. So what will we do? Is
Speakera group to make sure that we really overtly and maybe in a kind of weird and clunky way at the beginning, and I congratulate or or overtly approve of this new behavior when we see it first, we’ve got a notice it happening, and then we got caught up being a bit over the top about hey. That’s great. I’ve just noticed you’ve done that
Speakerdang, that’s exactly what we want to see more of good for you,
Speakerand so you know what I’ve just described sounds like a relatively straightforward process. It’s actually been, I, it takes a lot of effort and time and and really setting aside that balcony time to have those kind of on the team conversations instead of in the team conversations. So the lady just needs to make those tights
Speakertimes in a make the space for those conversations to happen and then and leave that process
Speakervery psychologically safe environment for people speak up. Do the century. Sam’s was some talk of conversations. Folks wish the venue they’re talking to her end of level that or companies pursuit of very deep company logo organization. I work for so one of these
SpeakerI do computers. Guardsman is quarter of two hundred members
Speakertones and charge them such a scenario of a small medium companies and only go walk around every every get term office and walk around and talk to people to ground level. But you are in or near the top, and it’s only guys blew that you could not go lower on the food chain. Research, an amusement
Speakerphone conversations with them, but in order to get these types of things out of them, you’re gonna have a very psychological, safe environment. Where one they feel so safe and secure to open up the like, even like the boss, know what to think how I feel, etc, etc. To
Speakeryou know, there’s no fear of reprisal from knowing the person you’re speaking to to their supervisor, to their supervisors versions of their supervisor said earlier, depending on how deep you want wanna go. So all these different things come it, but, as you said, it sounds easy yards from those exactly
Speakerbracewell extremely hard to execute on. It takes a lot of dedication and a lot of deliberate planning and effort on behalf of leader, so crucial for sure,
Speakeryeah and look what you’re describing I’m in. I remember somebody once saying to me: the queen thinks the world smells of paint
SpeakerI reflected on there and cried because every single place that she guys that just been repainted and sigh when you’re a senior leader in ai that power differential between you and and your paypal is huge, and we often forget in I I work with a lot of ladies and they say, but fiona I’m just me, you know. Why did they stop talking when I
Speakergetting the lift and I’m like sorry, you just me and not just you, I’m you’re, not one of the boys or the girls or the whoever you just out. You carry your power with you everywhere you go, and so, if you ask somebody four or five layers down in the organization what they think the chances of them genuinely telling you
Speakerwhat they really think, I pretty much zero in either quaint thinks the world smells of paint, so you’ve got to find imaginative ways to get to the bottom of it.
SpeakerI mean you, you talked about this idea of psychological safety. That is absolutely critical, but even with a very high degree of psychological safety, it would take an extremely brave person to say something in a controversial to the boss’s boss’s boss’s boss’s boss. So there are other ways of doing it: either walking or
Speakersomething is not a bad thing to do. Obviously, it’s great to be seen apart from anything else,
Speakerbut if you genuinely want to know what people think you probably gonna have to put in place some other kind of mechanism, so a lot of people use focus groups and they will they’re. That’s just a small group of people having a conversation. Ah, but often with an external, ah someone external to come in or occasion
Speakeryou can kind of wheel in somebody from hr. Although people are often very wary about talking about gary frankly in front of news, rancher yeah I’d, I I’d I liked. I scary scary people,
Speakeryeah, look sutter it out. It isn’t easy. It is simple it, but it’s definitely not easy, so understanding what people genuinely think. One of the things I find fascinating on it in my work. Is it off from work with senior leaders? To tell me don’t worry fiona when measuring culture, we’ve gotta a staff, engagement survey, employee engagement survey,
SpeakerI am- and I try to help them understand- that the engagement survey will tell you whether a person likes the experience of the system there in you. It it’ll tell you about their experience of the system. It won’t tell you what the system is
Speakerand it white ask them ever to interpret behaviour. So the kind of question you would love to be able to ask if you can find the right person to ask it, and you know who will get a real answer. The question is, you know when scott sacked harry, why do you think scott sacked harry cause if they think scott secretary, because scott didn’t lie
Speakerlike harry, then they probably think that’s dreadful and that’s gonna have a terrible impact on the culture. If, on the other hand, I think scott sacked harry because harry was being unethical, they probably think that’s fantastic and that’s gonna have a really positive impact on the culture. So no engagement survey ever asks. Why did you think the boss
Speakerdid that thing, and what do you think about that? Never ask their opinion of their interpretation of a behavior, so yeah, it’s again. It’s there’s a lot of nuance to this,
Speakerbut yeah. Getting trying to get a real conversation out of paypal is is easier, said than done, but definitely worth trying and the more you do it and the more you be sure that that is safe, like genuinely safe, the more likely it is that people will be prepared to share what I genuinely think.
SpeakerYou flesh now interpretation a few times a month
Speakerearlier, but usually run. We were talking about again
Speakerin interpretations, vary know what it’s so difficult, because you know we interpret. Everyone interprets something completely different for young right now we’re on a video call on to me. You have reddish your raspberry tight shirt, sweater or jacket weather jags. I preserved her shirt on, but
Speakeris that’s absurd? I I’ll know. Maybe you see something totally different
Speakeryoder for color your? Maybe your colored wonder at worth
Speakerin the af. Your needs you get. My point is that know there is my interpretation. There is your interpretation and anders one actually have it right in the old saying, there’s three sides to the truth.
SpeakerSo how do we balance that in an organization older or trying, a rumor special authors argues something so big as one making people feel blind and to drivers, culture change, which is absolutely one of the biggest things and organization
Speakerto go through? Yet every single individual in the organization is interpret a completely different way,
Speakeryeah, and- and we can’t I mean people will respond to their interpretation, regardless of what we do. They will always respond to their own interpretation of whatever has happened always and forever and there’s nothing. We can do about that. What we can, however, do is try to understand to some extent what that interpretation is.
SpeakerWe can, of course, also recognizing that that belonging is the most basic of human needs. We can over index on those symbolic things that help people feel like they belong. So am I once joined an organization where I was told it’s great to have you here.
SpeakerWe’ve ordered you a laptop. It should be here in about three weeks and we’ve put in the requisition for your email. Address battle probably come about a week later, and your security pass on we’re. Not quite sure, what’s happening to that, could you just sit over there in that corner and I’m in I get on with it so yeah little symbols but important things
Speakerthat made me feel like. I didn’t belong at all, and I’ve worked for another organization where, on day one they handed me my security pass. They had me my laptop everything was all set up. My first week of meetings was already scheduled. My boss, introduced me to everybody, came to the beginning of every one of those meetings explained who this person was at. They were had
Speakerset up the meeting with why they wanted me to meet them. What was important about their work and my work and the intersection between them and then left us to get to know one another, and did that maybe fifteen times during that first week and boy y’all on by and the end of the week they held a morning. Tea for me, which I didn’t even know was gonna happen, and they gave me a giant bunch of flu
Speakeryeah I fruit basket or whatever, like a by the end of that week, I felt like I had been a member of that family for years, so they’re, a mess of things that we can do is leaders to make how people feel like they belong and, and that alone will go a huge way to making it likely that they will tell us the truth when we asked them how they feel about
Speakersomething and that they will feel safe enough to share their real selves with everything else that happens down the road
Speakerlovers on board and processes. So personal written that are really in reality is the first impression, but your new employer has of your comfy people say: oh, it’s a junior interview process richer for some personal impact. Now, if you really wondering is gonna die,
Speakerdance that point and now you’re, actually young, at the dance, and now you have your opportunity to have your true first impression to add something: I’m currently trying to fix up a bit better. My current organization, because every summer we go through over for tuesday abs are active, posing season where people go out, people come in,
Speakerso be it beyond whole team changes
Speakerduring the summer. So how do we make that process? Slick smooth for people are coming in so advocate, integrate into the new unit. There are new missions, et cetera, et cetera, be part of this team. The sort teams, bigger of a larger team, understand the culture of organizations. All these different things added yeomans start
Speakerthat’s right way. It one has same token yoda their coins and had we probably super bowl people how to video exit, seven, etc, etc. So the I love that
Speakerhe has beginnings and endings really matter. So I would, I would imagine, is not a person listening to this, who doesn’t remember their first day at every job. I’ve ever had, and probably they last day side. The brain is wired to disproportionately remember the end of something and interpret the whole experience through that end as well, so
Speakerquite right that the stop in the end, a really crucial moments and we as leaders, should be paying a lot of attention to them.
SpeakerThe recently buy us for nothing right right.
SpeakerThose been a fantastic conversation are absolute other, but, like all good things must slowly wrap up here, but before we wrap it up, I got a call us questions for you and the first paper sense of the assert people from solution. Podcast and escort you feel represent what makes a great leader
Speakerlove it absolutely love it simple, but effective and volga is having to find you had any value. It’s all, but you know shameless plugs have at it. So I carried
Speakerso. I have a website fiona robinson dot com, I’m quite active on linkedin.
SpeakerI welcome a new connections and the opportunity to chat all things, culture and leadership. I do a lot of keynote speaking and executive, coaching and leadership, development programs and my book rules of belonging is available online via my website and all good online book. Retailer
Speakeralso, and as always for you to list it’s easy go to moving forward leadership. Dotcom four slash one, eight one, one, eighty one links from insurance got are coming out. It’s been a pleasure. It’s been on ramp to have you here and discuss the super important topic. Thanks scots been a pleasure.