How to Create Meaningful Partnerships | Seth Silver | Episode 197

Scott McCarthy [00:00:01]:
On episode one ninety seven the peak performance leadership podcast. We speak to partnership expert Seth Silver and he’s going to tell you how you can develop meaningful partnerships with your team. That’s right folks. It’s all about the relationship today. Are you ready for this? Alright. Let’s do it. Welcome one. Welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast, a weekly podcast series dedicated to helping you hit peak performance across the three domains of leadership.

Scott McCarthy [00:00:41]:
Those being leading yourself, leading your team, and leading your organization. This podcast couples my twenty years of military experience as a senior Canadian army officer with world class guests to bring you the most complete podcast of leadership going. And for more, feel free to check out our website at movingforwardleadership.com. And with that, let’s get to the show. Yes. Welcome. It is your chief leadership officer, Scott McCarthy. Thanks for coming out to the podcast.

Scott McCarthy [00:01:21]:
Whether you’re a long time listener or your first time, you are welcomed. It’s great to have you here. And I can’t wait to bring yet another show for you today. But before we dive in, if you’ve been listening to the show in real time, yes, I’m gonna talk about it again, and that is the upcoming leader growth mastermind. And why? Because you, the audience, have been asking for this. People want something new where they can talk to other leaders face to face, an environment where you’re not gonna be judged or criticized or feel let let down, feel unsafe. No. You are going to be coming to an environment where you can talk with other leaders about your troubles, about your challenges, about your fears, and your feelings, and all that stuff, and really start honing your skills, start owning your craft, becoming the best leader that you’re meant to be.

Scott McCarthy [00:02:22]:
And on top of that, you’ll be getting access to myself. The leader growth mastermind is coming ladies and gentlemen. Coming q one twenty twenty two. Can’t wait to launch this thing with you. Yes. There’ll be a cost to it, of course. You know how these things roll, but I promise you it will not be exuberant. So what do you need to do to keep in the loop of what’s going on with this? Just go to movingforwardleadership.com/leadergrowth, and that’s gonna bring you to the link.

Scott McCarthy [00:02:57]:
Sorry. There’s a hyphen there. Leader-growth and that URL is going to bring you to a mailing list which you can then go ahead and punch your name in and what that’s gonna do is gonna keep you up to speed on everything that’s going on. I will let you know when it’s open. You’ll be the first to know if you’re on this list. And yes, for this first iteration, space will be limited. So get on that. Again, that is movingforwardleadership.com/leader-growth.

Scott McCarthy [00:03:36]:
Alright. Let’s talk about today’s episode that is creating meaningful partnerships. Why? Because as leaders, we thrive in partnerships. We succeed with meaningful partnerships. If we don’t have these things, we’re in fact not leaders. We’re not doing anything. And the reality is our leadership influence will just wither away on the vine. So with that, I brought in Seth Silver.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:03]:
Doctor Silver has been the principal of Silver Consulting, as you guessed it, his own practice. But he’s been working with all kinds of clients from around the world, such as Alfred State College, Red Cross, Bosch, Canadian Employment and Immigration Union, Blue Cross Blue Shield. I’m looking at the list here, and they just keep going. His work has included consulting senior management on topics such as cultural change, employee engagement, customer loyalty, so on. And really, he’s dug deep into this topic of partnership. On the episode, we talk about why it’s so important to have meaningful partnerships in the first place, how leaders can have difficult conversations, or figure out how to establish a two way communication stream, how leaders can use his IRTAP model to level up their relationships, the impacts of poor alignment on the organization as a whole, and how organizations who valuable meaningful partnerships are whether are able to weather crisis is better. Seth is a scholar. He’s a outstanding guest, and you guessed it.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:21]:
You’re going to get a lot out of this episode. So that being said, that’s enough for me. Why don’t you sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation with doctor Seth Silver on how you can create meaningful partnerships. Seth Silver, welcome to the podcast. So good to have you here.

Seth Silver [00:05:55]:
Thank you, Scott. Great to be here.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:57]:
So we’re talking about your new book.

Seth Silver [00:06:00]:
Co authored.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:01]:
Co author book. Yeah. I was gonna give you all the credit, but, you know, you’re you’re you’re you’re very humble. You’re a humble leader, so that’s that’s a good sign already. Meaningful partnership at work. So let’s let’s dive straight in and, you know, why is even meaningful partnership important in the first place for the leaders out there listening?

Seth Silver [00:06:23]:
So we define meaningful partnership. Let’s maybe start with a definition, as an elevated state of connection, cohesion, coordination, and collaboration. So the four c’s, connection, cohesion, coordination, collaboration. And we we, had a lot of conversations, Tim and I, the coauthor and I, about the word meaningful. And at the time we were writing the book, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg had just passed away and the obituaries were coming in and the TV specials. And it was said that she led a meaningful life. And what they meant by that obviously around women’s rights was that her life stood for something. It went above and beyond.

Seth Silver [00:07:06]:
It had significance. It had impact. It had legacy. And we thought about that and we said, you know, this is this is really what we hope work partnerships can be. I mean, everyone actually, if you I know you read the book or read the first part of it. Everyone has work relationships. Right? But some of those stand out. Some of those are significant.

Seth Silver [00:07:24]:
Some of those make a difference in your career and to your sense of, you know, who you are at work and what you do and how you feel about yourself. And the ones that stand out and are extraordinary, we we view them as meaningful because they have that legacy and impact and significance. So we start with this as the goal. Meaningful partnership is the goal. We have an under pinning model. We call it ERTAP, e r t a p. I don’t know if you’re gonna go there in your questions, but I’ll I’ll just jump ahead a little bit and say that that’s our model, which stands for empathy, respect, trust, alignment, and partnership. And And we feel very strongly these are sequential.

Seth Silver [00:08:04]:
I think they are mutually reinforcing and synergistic, but they’re also sequential that with higher mutual empathy comes higher mutual respect. And with higher mutual respect comes greater, trust. And with greater trust over time, you have empathy, respect, and trust. You get to alignment, which leads to a state of partnership, which then is elevated to meaningful partnership. And then we have a process that creates those conditions, and that we call a workplace covenant. And perhaps you’re gonna ask, you know, more more questions about that. But that’s that process of of talking about what would it take to support you. Like, if you and I have a meaningful partnership and we are working collaboratively together, and we have interdependence, and we’re doing something over a longer period of time.

Seth Silver [00:08:49]:
So we have an important work relationship. And to make it a meaningful partnership, we’ve got to start with that conversation. And the conversation is what do I need to do to help you feel supported and be successful? And you in turn have to talk about what you’re gonna do to help me feel supported and be successful. So with a manager and team, this is really, in some ways, a unique conversation that doesn’t happen much. You know, I think a lot of times managers assume the role as manager and they take over the team and some of them may do some team building. Some of them may ask the question perfunctorily, you know, what do you need me to do for you or what do you expect from me? But mostly, it’s the manager telling the team what they need to do to make things, you know, superb. It’s kind of a one way street.

Scott McCarthy [00:09:32]:
And

Seth Silver [00:09:33]:
what we’ve noticed, in our consulting, and I’ve been doing this for twenty plus years, is that a lot of teams and individuals get frustrated at work. They get frustrated with their boss because they don’t feel supported. They’re not getting appreciated. They’re not getting the opportunity to use their skills. They feel like they’re spinning their wheels. In the book, we call it the dreaded four d’s. You heard the four c’s before. We we think there’s a lot of ailments in the in the workplace that are a result of the four d’s, and those d’s are dissatisfaction, disengagement, despair, and departure.

Seth Silver [00:10:07]:
And they were certainly prominent before COVID with the alienation and anxiety and, isolation of COVID. I think those things intensified. And and now with the economy kind of trying to figure out where it’s gonna land, I think those those things are even more the case. People are feeling dissatisfied. So you have employees who are dissatisfied. They have managers. You have managers who are dissatisfied, who feel abandoned by their teams, who feel that their teams don’t support them. And and, you know, the the employees walk out the door, you know, 05:00 or something, and the managers are there for the next four hours continuing to do the things they need to do to make the next day work.

Seth Silver [00:10:41]:
So this two way street of frustration is actually pretty common. And so we wrote this book with the idea of helping. Helping a manager and a team realize that they are in the same boat together. They’re rowing, you know, maybe you read the metaphor about two in a canoe. They’re in that canoe together, and they’re not going to go anywhere until they realize that they’re mutually interdependent, and they’re both responsible for the success of the relationship and the quality of output.

Scott McCarthy [00:11:11]:
Wow. That that that was a solid answer for our first question. You might you might have said that once or twice before, but there was, you know, definitely a lot to unpack there. And what I kinda hear from you is, you know, back to the original question, why is it important in the first place? It’s important in the first place to establish that, you know, common communication base, which in turns ensure that everyone within your team and your organization feels safe and secure to be able to have those difficult conversations, then ensure that we’re all moving in the right direction. If I was to summarize within, you know, 15 of

Seth Silver [00:11:53]:
what Yeah. No.

Scott McCarthy [00:11:54]:
I I

Seth Silver [00:11:54]:
think that’s it. If I could sort of deep dive a little I think the the word of the day is support, you know, if I’ve %. Street word of the day. And if if you view support as kind of an umbrella term and you unpack the word support, you know, you peel that onion back. I think support includes recognition. I think support includes opportunities to learn and grow. Support includes psychological safety. Support includes, you know, understanding and appreciation for people’s lives outside of of what they do at work.

Seth Silver [00:12:21]:
It’s a lot of things. And and back to this notion of when they get dissatisfied, disengaged, despairing, and departing, it’s when they don’t feel supported. Right? They don’t feel like they’re getting what they need. And so, you know, I noticed a long time ago that that, a lot of this stuff was left unsaid. Can I tell a quick story? So, many, many moons ago, I was at the Xerox Corporation. And I was fresh out of grad school, and it was my first, you know, big corporate gig. And, I was in the organization development group, and I was one of about three or four people on a team. And we were supporting 5,000 people in manufacturing and engineering.

Seth Silver [00:13:02]:
And so one of the things I used to do in addition to team building and or excuse me, in addition to leadership training and empowerment training and other things was team building. And so here’s how I did it. I mean, back in those days, team building was a day or two day long thing and, you know, they they like doing that and they actually this company believed in it. So I would interview the manager, you know, weeks before the team building event and say, okay. What does your group need to experience? What do they need to learn? You know, what do you wanna do with the stakes? You got eight hours where you’re not doing your usual stuff, and I wanna make it useful and relevant. And so I would talk to the manager about things going well, not well, and I would ask, how’s it going with your team? And what I always heard was, well, they’re pretty good, but I wish. I wish they were more prepared for ops meetings. I wish they wouldn’t have side conversations during meetings.

Seth Silver [00:13:49]:
I wish they would resolve issues themselves without bugging me. I wish they would, you know, take more responsibility for this or that. I wish. I wish. I wish. And then I’d meet the team without the manager because they were always more truthful and open that way. And I, you know, I usually got the strengths and the weaknesses of the team and what they wanted to learn. And when I’d ask them, you know how’s the relationship with your manager they would say well he or she is pretty good but we wish right and then you’d get their wish list which was you know we wish he or she gave us more recognition we wish he or she would fill those empty positions because the extra workload is killing us, or we wish he or she didn’t make mandatory overtime on the weekends, or we wish he or she would blah blah blah.

Seth Silver [00:14:31]:
And it just sort of hit me like a, you know, a two by four. These people aren’t talking to each other, at least not about what they need to feel supported and be successful. So at first, the team building included this exchange of expectations, you know, what do we need from each other? But the process evolved and it grew over time and my coauthor and I, you know, after I left the company and I started doing consulting, and I was a part time professor, and so that’s where I met Tim. And and then he and I started to do stuff together. And so the process evolved into a very phased kind of thing where, in the workplace covenant, we’d have the manager and the team think about really three things. What do I owe the other side to help them feel supported and be successful? What do I expect from them so that I or we will feel supported and be successful? And what feedback, you know, what feedback do I have now? And and what questions do I have? So we throw that one in sometimes too. What questions do I have of the other party? And so what would happen if I can use props here? You’re gonna like this. So this is the manager, and this is the team.

Seth Silver [00:15:35]:
K? And so the manager would outline what do I owe my team to help them feel supported and be successful. I owe them coaching. I owe them resources. I owe them consideration of their outside life. I owe them opportunities to grow. I owe them, you know, this and that. And the team would say, here’s what we expect. Here’s what we expect from our manager so that we will feel supported and be successful.

Seth Silver [00:15:59]:
And the idea was to merge these lists. The obligations of manager and the expectations of team merge them together, and that created a covenant, not a religious thing, but just a set of promises. And then and then we switched. Right? And then we switched. Then we’d have the team talk about what they owe, and the manager would outline what he or she expects from the team. And, again, we’d merge those lists. And so these covenants were written documents, usually eight, nine, 10 items long. And the idea was to reflect on them from time to time to give each other feedback on, on the thing from time to time.

Seth Silver [00:16:37]:
The team would rate itself and share that rating, and then they would rate the manager and share that rating. The manager would rate him or herself and then rate the team. And so the idea was that, micro adjustments were made all the time. You know, when a plane flies, it doesn’t just fly at 36,000 feet, you know for three hours and then drop right? I mean it’s constantly going up and down based on the weather based on the winds based on the runway that’s available. It’s making micro adjustments in its flight and these covenants allow that to happen in the relationship between a manager and a team instead of waiting for some blow up and then hey, let’s call HR, let’s call the lawyers, let’s let’s resign, let’s you know go through the four d’s. So

Scott McCarthy [00:17:20]:
That’s awesome. That’s actually, mostly answers the question which I had my head for a call on from your original. But what I want to get out of you is, you know, I I love everything, and it makes sense what you just talked about and having those lists. And and and having that all, what we call in the military, an all informed net, I e, everyone’s all understanding of what’s going on and, you know, expectations and and and and requirements, etcetera, etcetera. What I would like to get out of you is for those leaders that are listening and feel like and they’re, like, thinking themselves, damn. That sounds good. That’s what I need to do. That’s what how I need to that’s what I need to implement to get my my team moving, you know, at the next level, hitting peak performance.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:10]:
But how do I go about actually doing that? You know? How do I, like, start? Because it can be intimidating. It It can be intimidating for the manager to go, okay. What are your expectations of me to team members?

Seth Silver [00:18:24]:
Exactly why we wrote the book. That is exactly why. And in fact, in the the back of the the end part of the introduction is, you know, where do you start? How do you start? Particularly because the soft skills are the you know, the soft stuff is the hard stuff, said one corporate CEO. The soft stuff is the hard stuff. And I think it’s true. So you’re right. I mean, people have great technical skills, especially in high-tech firms and medical places, but they don’t always have the EQ and the people skills to have this kind of conversation. So we we actually wrote the book with that kind of Sheldon Cooper Big Bang Theory person in mind because we know they’re out there.

Seth Silver [00:19:01]:
We know they’re out there. They they’re just a little bit uncertain or even clueless on on how to have that conversation. So there is kind of a step by step. But recall the remember I told the story about the the managers the teams, and team building at Xerox and stuff. And so it was kind of fortuitous that for me, the epiphany of this process started with engineers because the mindset that I’ve always had with this process was to make it efficient, to make it, what’s the word elegant I think when they talk about theories to to to get rid of the fluff. Right? To make it as time efficient and value add as possible. To to not linger in things that don’t really have return. And so quite frankly, this is a three hour session on the front end.

Seth Silver [00:19:47]:
And at that point, it’s thirty to sixty minute reviews every two to three months. And my opinion is if you’re not willing to spend that to create meaningful partnership, then you shouldn’t be managing. Right? You’re you’re you’re already off on the wrong foot and and have some things to learn about the nature of leadership. This the relationship you have as a manager with your team is so crucial. I mean there’s a ton of empirical research that says that that relationship with the boss is the one that affects performance and morale and retention and quality and error rates and creativity and you know all kinds of things that have been measured that really come down to how how high is the quality between the manager and the individual employee or the team that relationship is arguably the single most important thing so the book was written with the notion of you know let’s let’s get rid of the fat let’s just focus on what’s important and so that three hour conversation yes is very much structured around exchanging what do we need to do for each other in order to help the other party in this case the manager help the team or the team help the manager feel supported be successful. And discussing those items and where those matches don’t happen. So remember I set the expectations of the team and the obligations of the manager. Well, you compare and contrast and there’s going to be outlined things, right? The manager might have an obligation on his list that says I’m going to help you get visibility.

Seth Silver [00:21:18]:
And I’m going to offer opportunities for you to present to the levels above and you know improve your career by exposure. That’s nowhere on the team’s expectation list. But the team says, oh, that’s an interesting obligation you’ve got there boss. Actually, we appreciate that. Please keep it on. But we have this expectation that you don’t have. We have this expectation that you will fill those open vacancies or be considerate of our outside life, and that’s nowhere on your obligation list, but that actually is quite important to us. So that discussion is really important about what it takes to help the other feel supported.

Seth Silver [00:21:54]:
And it becomes the basis of self feedback and other feedback. So to your point, how do you have a conversation? You follow the questions. I think a third party is helpful, but not necessary. We we wrote it with the notion in mind that a a manager could kind of pick this thing up and sort of look at part one and part two and part three and say, okay. You know, I can do this. This is like running a meeting. I pose a question to the team. I give them a few minutes to think about it and generate an answer, and they come back to me, and I share my ideas with them.

Seth Silver [00:22:24]:
And, you know, I think most managers are fairly comfortable facilitating a meeting. And in some ways, that’s all this is. You know, it helps to document it, and we talk about a signing process. So these covenants are signed. So I don’t know if that that kind of answers your

Scott McCarthy [00:22:42]:
No. For sure. And and and, you know, to add on, I think it takes one a lot of humility into dropping your your ego as a leader, to be open and transparent. So kinda back to a bit of what we talked about earlier, just gotta make that safe environment for for you to say, okay, guys. You know? What is it that you expect from me, you know, to make sure that I’m on track in order for me to help you? I need you to help me to help you belt. Right? That that whole back and forth thing. Right? So no. No.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:14]:
No. For sure. I I I I fully agree, and I like the process. And and I think the documentation bit, Documentation, I feel sometimes gets a bad rep. But at the same time, some people are like, oh, we over document. Like, yeah. We over document stuff that we shouldn’t over that we shouldn’t document. But I think this is actually one of those times when we should document that.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:36]:
So you can go and go you can go and look, you know, have pin it up on your board next to your desk and go, crap.

Seth Silver [00:23:43]:
So my coauthor and I have a covenant. Right? I mean, we started to write the book and we realized, oh, gee. Maybe we should have the covenant that we’re talking about in the book. And we created one. And I said to Tim, okay. What do I need to do as your coauthor and also partner in consulting and other things that we do together? Because we write articles and we we do consulting gigs and obviously the book. And, you know, I posed the question, what what do, you know, what do you need to do to help me feel supported? What do I need to do to help you feel supported? So we compared our list. Now we literally wrote the book on it, so it did take us three hours.

Seth Silver [00:24:17]:
It took us about thirty minutes. But, you know, I came up with my list and I signed it. And, you know, relative to my coauthor, it’s things like recognize his other obligations involved in planning, especially on issues of money, keep work out of the weekends, recognize his role as a coconsultant, be open to his input feedback and changes, pay his invoices in a timely way as he invoices me for consulting work. Honest communication, be clear, direct, continue our synergy, fun, and enjoyment, and keep our commitments and promises. I mean so it’s it’s the list of things you would expect to people who are working closely together in the kind of way that we are to have. And he obviously has a a similar list, but it’s got some differences because there’s some things important to me that aren’t important to him. And we review and and it provides the guardrails. Right? So when we do have challenges around a financial thing or a difficult consulting assignment or, obligations with respect to promoting of the book, we can kinda look at that list and say, okay.

Seth Silver [00:25:18]:
Here’s here’s what’s important for him or here’s what’s important for me.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:23]:
Love it. Absolutely love it. You’re you’re you’re not just, you know, you’re practicing what you preach. You’re you’re walking the walk as as you talk to talk, which is Sure. What we need more in today, with the leaders out there. Now I kinda wanna boomerang back. You you talked a bit about your model, right, the ERTAP model. So can we do a little bit deeper dive into that? So, you know, exactly what is it used for? You mentioned it’s just, you know, it it builds on itself.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:54]:
So how can the leaders look at, you know, their current partnerships that they have within their, you know, within their teams, maybe their greater organization? Maybe this is with coworkers, vice team members, subordinates, or maybe it’s with their superior. How can they look at, you know, those those relationships they have with this model and go, okay. Now how can I level these up?

Seth Silver [00:26:15]:
Yeah. So we’ve done empirical research on teams, which we summarize in one of the chapters. And we’ve measured empathy, respect, trust, alignment, and partnership. So we know they have a profound significant effect. Recall that those five elements or four elements, really empathy, respect, trust, and alignment are the the things we feel are necessary, to create meaningful partnership. Let me use an analogy. If I say to you, Scott, I think you should be happy. I I wish for you to have a happy life.

Seth Silver [00:26:46]:
Okay? And then you say that’s that’s a great word, Seth. I agree with you, but I don’t really understand, you know, what what does it mean to be happy. And so we could peel that back and say, well, it means close loving relationships. It means good health. It means financial independence. It means a degree of choice in your life. And and you know the opportunity to pursue things that mean something to you. Right? Those are components of happiness.

Seth Silver [00:27:09]:
We believe empathy, respect, trust, and alignment are key components. Maybe not exhaustive but among, if not the most important elements of meaningful partnership. So empathy happens in this covenant process when both sides start to share what they expect and what they owe. Because let’s say I’m your team. Alright? You’re the manager. I’m your team. And you’re sharing with me what you think, you know, what what you owe me so that I’ll feel supported and be successful. Right? You’re saying I assess for for you and the team, I should provide coaching.

Seth Silver [00:27:42]:
I should provide resources. I should provide training. I should be open to feedback. I should give you opportunity for co decision making, etcetera. Here’s what I owe you. And when you go through that list, a bell goes off. It’s like, oh that list tells me how Scott sees leadership. That’s what he thinks leadership is.

Seth Silver [00:28:01]:
And I’m not making a judgment. That’s that’s not you know a good or a bad thing. It just gives me a window. When you share what you owe to help us feel supported. That tells us something about how you see leadership. And then when we come back to you with here’s what we expect from you so that we’ll feel supported and be successful. Guess what? You now have a window in how we think. Right? Because that list tells you a lot about where we’re coming from.

Seth Silver [00:28:23]:
What’s important to us because we got to narrow it down to eight things. We don’t have 58 things. We have eight things. Seven or eight things. Right? We have to pick and choose among the most important. So there’s a an empathy growth, an empathy thing that happens there because you’re now understanding more where we’re coming from and we’re more understanding where you’re coming from. So that’s the beginning. Respect.

Seth Silver [00:28:49]:
You know, the theories will tell you there’s two kinds of respect in the world. There’s, owed respect and earned respect. Maybe you’ve heard those. I mean, owed respect is holding the door open for someone and please and thank you and courtesies you’d extend to anyone. Earned respect is over time, I respect your skills. I respect your unique background. I respect where you went to school. I respect the talents you have.

Seth Silver [00:29:10]:
I respect your insights and your contributions. So those are things you uniquely have earned. And so as you work together, from hopefully a greater basis of empathy, you behave your way into earned respect. And then over time, we believe with higher empathy and higher mutual respect comes higher mutual trust. I now trust you. I’m willing to be vulnerable around you. I’m willing to, engage with you knowing you have my back. You’re not gonna let others speak ill of me.

Seth Silver [00:29:43]:
You’re gonna keep your promises. So there’s, you know, an enhanced level of trust. I think Covey talks about the bank account of trust. You’ve probably heard of that. So those deposits get made over time. And so over time now you’ve got increasing empathy, increasing respect, increasing trust. And then you get to this really cool word that is used a lot that few people have defined and we actually have. And that’s alignment.

Seth Silver [00:30:07]:
We’re, you know, in the book, we talk about two in a canoe. And we talk about that rowing because you can imagine in a canoe, I know you’ve been in one. Right? If one person’s got a really powerful stroke and one person has just kind of a light stroke, what’s going to happen? That canoe is going to go in circles. Right? Literally, it’s gonna go in circles. Right? One strong rower, one weak rower. Or if you’re both on the same side and not on different sides, again, you’re gonna go in circles. So you have to be aligned. The the stroke has to be the same.

Seth Silver [00:30:35]:
The timing has to be the same. You have to know where you’re both going, etcetera. You know, there’s expressions we have that connote alignment, singing from the same songbook, rowing in the same direction, simpatico. We’re in sync. You know, we have all these words and expressions that mean we’re, you know, we’re moving as one. Right? And, that’s a hard thing to achieve. But when you achieve it, that’s that’s what makes for a great team, and that’s what makes, for success. You know, I I I think I see a a blue thing there and I I know the Canadian background.

Seth Silver [00:31:10]:
You can pick a hockey team. Right? A hockey team has to be aligned or they’re not gonna work. Right? That pass pass of the podcast to be.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:19]:
If you’re gonna pick a hockey team, you have to pick Montreal, not Toronto. Just saying.

Seth Silver [00:31:22]:
Oh, absolutely. I’m a Habs fan. Absolutely.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:24]:
Yes. I know there was a reason why I liked you.

Seth Silver [00:31:27]:
I hope I haven’t alienated half of your audience now. And and they were aligned during the playoffs, and they’re not particularly aligned now, but let’s not digress too much on that. So this word alignment is critical. It’s a magic state of where everyone understands and agrees on the same goals, the same processes, the same priorities, and everyone’s willing to take one for the team. And it’s important that the manager and team be aligned because sometimes the manager has his or her own agenda. Right? And that’s where teams really get frustrated. Oh, the boss is just in it for himself. The boss is just chasing his bonus.

Seth Silver [00:32:05]:
He doesn’t really care what happens to us. He just wants to hit those marks so that he can get a payout in December. Right? Or the manager thinks the team doesn’t care. The team is not in this with me. The team doesn’t have my back. They can leave at 05:00. Their ass isn’t on the line. I’m the one who’s accountable.

Seth Silver [00:32:21]:
I’m the one who’s gonna suffer the consequences. They can go on their merry way. And, you know, those two things suggest a lack of alignment, a lack of commitment, and, an absence of real partnership.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:38]:
It’s tough being alone as a leader. You’re often in situations where you’re not sure where to go. You’re not sure what’s the best decision. Yet, as Colin Powell once said, it’s lonely at the top. And reality is, it takes time. Sure, you’re gonna read books and listen to podcasts such as this one, but nothing beats experience. But who has time for experience when you’re at a situation right now that requires experience to lead yourself, your team, your organization through. That’s where coaching comes in.

Scott McCarthy [00:33:16]:
You see, coaching enables you to unlock the experience in others. Right here, right now, you have twenty years of military service plus a 50 plus episodes of interviews and topics and research sitting at your disposal. So what are you waiting for? Are you ready to level up your game? Become that leader that you know you’re meant to be? Are you ready to go to the next level? If so, drop me a line, scott@movingforwardleadership.com or swing by the website

Seth Silver [00:33:57]:
and

Scott McCarthy [00:33:57]:
book a discovery call through movingforwardleadership.com/book. Let’s get you moving in the right direction, leading better, leading more effectively today, right here, right now. Starting off with leading yourself, and then let’s focus on how you can build your high performing team to drive your organization’s output higher, faster, harder today. Not next week, not next month, but today. Alright, folks. That’s it. Now let’s get back to the show. Now I I I like to talk about what we call the three domains of leadership, my three domains of leadership here.

Scott McCarthy [00:34:54]:
The first one being leading yourself, I e, leading you as the leader. How do you, take care of your health? How do you make decisions? How do you develop yourself? You know, all these personal stuff. Second domain is leading your team. Much is what we’ve been talking about this whole conversation. How do you take care of the members of your team, I. E, Jack, Susie, Sally, etcetera? How do you build that cohesion? How do you build that level of respect, trust between each other, align, etcetera? And then final one is your organization. How do you lead the organization, I. E.

Scott McCarthy [00:35:27]:
The institution? Now you talked about, you know, the effects that misaligned or, you know, teams can have on each other, I. E, you know, the boss is just out for himself, not really looking after us, not going after the actual goals that we should, just wants to hit that bonus, etcetera. What are the impacts on the organization as a whole when we don’t have that alignment from your point of view?

Seth Silver [00:35:53]:
Terrible culture. Terrible culture. I mean, lack of retention. I mean, there’s all kinds of metrics that show up pretty quickly. So here I am in Rochester, New York, which is we talked about earlier is on the South Side Of Lake Ontario. It’s also home of an interesting organization. It’s called Wegmans, and they have been rated time and again as the leading supermarket chain certainly in The United States arguably in the world they always are on the top 10 list of best places to work they lead you know supermarkets in store sales and quality and service and all kinds of other things. They they show up in all the big charts of customers.

Seth Silver [00:36:29]:
I mean I’m not going to sing their praises too much without an endorsement here. But what I will say is they have a wonderful culture. And if you look at the back of most of their employees business cards, it says employees, customers excuse me. It says employees first, customers second. Let me say that again. Employees first, customers second. That’s what it says on their business card on the back of their business. Joe Blow, vice president, blah blah blah.

Seth Silver [00:36:55]:
Look at the back of the card employees first, customer second. Which tells you their philosophy is to do what they can to make sure their associates are well treated. And, I used to teach a graduate program in human resource development. I did that part time for fourteen years. So I had a parade of students and several work for Wegmans and I’ve kept touch. And so I’ve talked with them about, you know, what some of their HR practices are. And they are very strong on the HR side, and they have very, clear high standards for what they expect of their managers. Their managers have to check-in with employees on a weekly basis.

Seth Silver [00:37:29]:
They have to have meetings often. They have to know the morale of every employee on their team. They have to know the names of the significant others and children of their employees and important dates. They do all kinds of celebrations. They’re in training quite often. I don’t know how many weeks a year, but it’s it’s measured in weeks per year, not hours per year. And they’re constantly rotating. And, you know, it’s a wonderful environment.

Seth Silver [00:37:52]:
I’ve known many people in the HR role there, and they love it. People just sing the I mean, all that stuff that they promote, it’s true. You know, it’s a very highly engaged workplace. So back to your question. Culture. I think there’s two kinds of culture in the world in organizations. There’s culture by default and culture by choice. Wegmans has made a culture by choice.

Seth Silver [00:38:12]:
They’ve asked themselves thoughtfully, what do we want the work experience to be like here, and what do we want our customers to experience, and our partners and vendors and other things. They’ve consciously thought what’s the experience of being with us, either as an employee or a customer. What should that be like? Everyone else I think is customer default. You know, the airlines have a terrible experience because I don’t think they really care how they treat their people and how they treat their customers. I think most organizations are cultured by default. So you ask what happens. I think if you don’t care about the relationships between managers and teams, you’ll end up with this culture by default. And it’s got a lot of problems.

Seth Silver [00:38:53]:
Excuse me. And I think people go through those four D’s. Let me come back to that. I think if they don’t feel supported over time by their manager or by their coworkers, they start to feel dissatisfied. And if that goes on long enough, they feel disengaged, which as we know is that state of not really caring and kind of looking around passively for another job and you’re not fully present and you’re not giving it a 10%. You might give it a % on some days but most days you’re 80 or 90 or less. And if the disengagement goes on long enough, I think you enter a state of despair where you begin to feel you’re wasting your life. You know, you’re spinning your wheels.

Seth Silver [00:39:29]:
You’re in a place where no one cares. You’re not gonna grow. You’re not gonna get better. It’s not gonna get better. The behavior of the people who are not supporting you is not gonna change, and you get kinda depressed. And then you depart. And I know in the economy in The US right now, there’s a lot of people departing. You know, post COVID, the economy is such that people can find other opportunities or they can work from home.

Scott McCarthy [00:39:52]:
Yeah. They call it the the great resignations ongoing.

Seth Silver [00:39:56]:
Right. So I think it’s really incumbent now more than ever for organizations to say, okay. We better create this culture by by choice, this culture by intent and and decide what we want the experience to be like. And so I think these covenants, this covenant process helps you at at the unit of one manager and one team at a time. It’s it’s not a fix for the entire thing, but over time, one team, one team, one team. They all have these covenants. You create a sense of psychological safety. The covenants enable praise, by the way, and and recognition.

Seth Silver [00:40:34]:
They create an environment where grudges don’t happen because you’re actually giving feedback to each other at least every two to three months, and you’re raising issues before they they fester for too long, and you’re resolving them, and you’re making changes to address them. So I think one of the other positive things that comes out of the workplace covenant is, grudges don’t happen as much. Have you noticed in the workplace there are some people who just carry this baggage and these grudges? Oh, he screwed me three years ago. I’ll never work with him again. I don’t trust him. He There’s a lot of people like that way more than you think. You know we could go off in a direction about psychological illness or mental health but I’ll just suffice it to say that there’s angry people in the workplace and people who have felt hard done by or chip on shoulder and it’s because these things are left unaddressed for so long. The opportunities for apology or cleaning the slate or hitting reset don’t happen and people may still have to work together but they still carry those those hard feelings from way back and so when you have a workplace covenant I think one of the side benefits is that at least every two or three months, you wipe the slate clean.

Seth Silver [00:41:43]:
You do these covenant reviews and you say, hey. Let’s look back over the last two months and give each other feedback. What worked? What didn’t? How can I support you more? How can you support me more? Okay. Guess what? Everything that happened the last two months, we forget about it. Let’s move on. Now we look at the next two months going forward, and we’ll review that in two months time. And you just kind of take it two months at a time or three months at a time between reviews. And then I think it allows people to, have a greater level of psychological health.

Seth Silver [00:42:11]:
No. I That forgive and forget can move on.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:14]:
I I really like what you had to say there. I I’d like to go back to, what you something you mentioned earlier and saying, you know, it’s it’s obviously not a ban fix all solution. It’s not a band aid, but it’s not the fix all, you know. It’s not it’s not the thing that will solve all the problems in organization. But as you explain it, the way I look at it is, like, these are building blocks. Right? You establish, you know, this great partnership with your team and the rest of the you have your coworkers do the same with their teams. Building blocks are set. Foundation level is set.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:45]:
You establish these covenants with your coworkers, next level of foundation gets set, and it just builds on and builds on. And suddenly, you know, you have that high performing, you know, teams. You have high performing teams. And then you have, as you mentioned, Wegmans of a high performing organization where it’s recognized year in, year out

Seth Silver [00:43:01]:
With a stellar culture, a magnetic culture. Right.

Scott McCarthy [00:43:04]:
Right. And becomes that culture. So what I would like for you to discuss, probably as we’re we’re slowly starting to wind down here. What I would like for you to discuss, before we wrap up is the effects that, you know, how organizations who operate in this manner are able to weather these storms that we’ve seen as of late, you know, the the the impacts of COVID nineteen on it, the impacts that we now see with the great resignation that’s ongoing. How do these, organizations that value meaningful partnerships within it, how are they able to weather these storms?

Seth Silver [00:43:44]:
So let me take a story from the book. And it’s a story of Marie, and she was the director of a business services team. And she had a team of about 10 people mostly in sales and mostly in the Upstate New York area. And there was some geographical dispersion. I mean, a lot of them were in Rochester, but there was some in Albany and Buffalo and Syracuse, etcetera. And, I had been working with her. We had been doing some executive coaching and three sixty stuff, and she had been working on her leadership and learning to be kind of more authentic and transparent and and motivating. And as part of that process of development, we did a Tim and I did a workplace covenant with her and her team fixing with the idea of fixing some relationships on the team.

Seth Silver [00:44:30]:
And then, that’s right around when COVID happened. And in fact, we we had created the covenant in person. So, you know, flip charts conference room, you know, face to face, that three hour session had happened. I’m gonna guess maybe it was December or January 2020. And then we were scheduled, for the first review, which happened March 13, which at least here everything shut down I think on the seventeenth. Or maybe it was the eleventh I saw them. It was the fifteenth. It was about four days before everything just went, you know we we knew it was coming and we knew we just you know literally were gonna be days from from a big change happening.

Seth Silver [00:45:06]:
And, the review was interesting because, she was able to express frustration with her team. This was the situation in which a manager really felt abandoned by her team and not supported. And she was able to express that through the covenant and say, look, you know, here’s what I signed up for and here’s what you guys signed up for. And here’s the 10 things on your list, and I see your 10 signatures. You know, seven of these things are going pretty well, but these three things you guys let me down last month. I mean, and here’s what happened, and here’s how I felt. And, you know, I’m a big girl, but, you know, I was really pissed off. And and you guys left me in a lurch.

Seth Silver [00:45:40]:
And, you know, you could see the nods, and you could see the breakthroughs on the team. And that first review, by the way, was probably difficult for her because she had a real truth to share and hard feelings to share. But they got it, and they recognized. And she was able to say to them, look, I am busting my hump and working fifteen, sixteen, eighteen hour days on your but you don’t always see the stuff I’m doing, but I’m trying to make your life easier. And so that message got through, and it anchored them. What was really cool in that first review, and I’m getting to the COVID part in a second. But in that first review, it anchored them to the, oh, this really is the way we’re gonna work. This wasn’t a flavor of the month.

Seth Silver [00:46:21]:
This covenant thing, our boss is taking it seriously. The company’s taking it seriously. The consultant’s helping us. So, yeah, we better start living to that covenant actively. And so that review was was kind of an emotional breakthrough. We’ll fast forward about six weeks, then there’s COVID. Everything’s online. She’s doing everything online.

Seth Silver [00:46:40]:
And what she reported back to me was the the incredible clarity of communication, the the connection that she had with people. All of a sudden, there was a ton more honesty. When she connected one on one, people really understood and asked her how was she doing? How was she handling the load? You know, what can I do to help you, Marie? There was just an intensity of support that she had never felt before. And in turn, you know, she was doing what she had always been doing to help them. And then they did this review on their own. At that point, I stepped away. So they did the next review on their own without the consultants. And, you know, her report back to me was it just was amazing that they had this because during COVID, very different than most other teams, their sales went up.

Seth Silver [00:47:31]:
They actually did 50% better during COVID than they had done pre COVID. And she attributed it much of it, not all of it obviously, but much of it to just the increased synergy, the increased alignment, the increased communication, the increased support. You know, they weren’t sort of this disparate team kinda everyone doing it for themselves. They were now really one unit looking out for the whole team and looking out for their manager and their manager looking out for them. So for them, it made a huge difference and having that set of promises to each other that they really took seriously, allowed them to, have the resilience, I guess, the right word to, you know, the energy to get through it, the feeling that others have your back.

Scott McCarthy [00:48:20]:
No. But you’re you’re talking to an army guy, and when you say that feeling that others have your back, you know, that that’s what we operate towards because, you know, long story short Got your six.

Seth Silver [00:48:33]:
Right? Who’s got your six?

Scott McCarthy [00:48:34]:
Who’s got your six? Long story short, when we run operations, you know, the high risk of life. So you gotta make sure that your team is operating at that point. But same time, you know,

Seth Silver [00:48:45]:
I

Scott McCarthy [00:48:45]:
I was giving a a presentation to a group of business students, and I said, and I’ll wrap this story up for fairly quickly. But, ultimately, I said, you know, end of the day, what we do in the army, is very similar what you guys do in the business world. You know, we’re in the business of saving lives, and you guys too. Because end of the day, companies make money which gets paid to employees, then in turn goes to feed families and put shelters over. Without without that, you know, you’re people’s lives going to risk. So the moral of my story is, the stronger our team is, you’re able to weather these storms and get through these these tough times while you’re you’re, in fact, saving lives because you’re not necessarily laying off employees or you’re not laying off as many employees and keeping them employed and keeping a roof above their head and food on the table for them and their families. So it it does matter. It does matter at that level.

Scott McCarthy [00:49:40]:
So Yeah.

Seth Silver [00:49:41]:
I I would say it matters in a in another way just to kinda build on what you’re saying, which is that, you know, between our middle twenties and our middle sixties, we spend more time with the people we work with than the people we live with. Oh, yeah. Of your waking time is spent at work. I mean, work is it really is a second family for better or for worse. And I think, you know, there’s three words we use in the introduction of the book, which I love, and they’re they’re not words I coined. I I they’re words that come from a different author. But he says workplaces should be characterized by dignity, meaning, and community. And I love those words.

Seth Silver [00:50:13]:
Right? Dignity. That there should be a dignity in work and the dignity in being part of this group. That we treat each other with esteem and respect and we value differences, and we value each other. Meaning means we’re doing something that we care about. We’re we’re in this role to make a difference for our customers, our clients, whoever it is we’re serving. You know, in a nonprofit, it’s it’s mission. And in a for profit, it’s our customer. And community means you know we have each other’s back that we help each other learn we help each other in tough times we support each other professionally and personally that we stay together and those are great goals

Scott McCarthy [00:50:48]:
But as

Seth Silver [00:50:49]:
I note in the introduction, as we note in the introduction, Tim and I, how do you make that happen? This gets back to culture. How do you create a workplace of dignity, meaning, and community? Well, good question. It takes really good quality relationships. And, you know, you’ve mentioned the military. I think a military think of a a a battalion or or, that’s a lower unit as, what’s what’s, you know, 10 to 12 guys, you would call that a

Scott McCarthy [00:51:14]:
ten, twelve secondtion.

Seth Silver [00:51:16]:
Yeah. Section. Okay. So, they need to respect their commanding officer. But in turn, their commanding officer needs to see him or herself as in service to the troops, his or her team. Right I mean any group of soldiers who sees their manager boss doesn’t care their commanding officer doesn’t care or will save his ass before saving theirs is not going to have the loyalty and trust they’re not going to have that commanding officers back so it really is one of interdependence. And, you know, that that’s a noble goal. It’s a great goal.

Seth Silver [00:51:53]:
But as you noted at the beginning of this discussion, how do you make it happen? What’s the practical road path? And that’s actually where I think the the book makes sense. This is where the book is offering people kind of a step by step. And it provides the concepts, but then it also provides here’s the five questions you wanna ask your team. You know, you’re struggling with how to create meaningful partnership. You you know, you’ve read, you know, the first four chapters. You now know what meaningful partnership is, and you buy into it and why it’s a good thing at the micro and the macro level. Now you’re wondering how to do it. Well, guess what? Chapter six tells you how to do it or whatever the chapter is.

Seth Silver [00:52:27]:
So I think I think that’s where the value would be for your listeners is, you know, how do you create that that state of meaningful partnership, elevated connection, cohesion, coordination, collaboration, dignity, meaning, and community? How do you get there? It starts with that conversation about support, but then it also goes to the next step, which is I’m willing to give myself feedback and share it with you. And I’m willing to offer you constructive feedback around your covenant and share with you what you’re doing great. And thank you for it, but also point out where you could be a little better. And, you know, we we accept that feedback in the spirit. Can I just say something about feedback?

Scott McCarthy [00:53:08]:
Absolutely.

Seth Silver [00:53:09]:
In the workplace, without this kind of stuff, people get very nervous about feedback. You know, if if you went into your job and, you know, you got there or you picked up your voice mail at 07:30 in the morning and your manager’s voice was there saying, you know, call me quick. I’ve got some feedback for you. A lot of people get very nervous about hearing that that voice mail from their manager. We kind of wonder what the feedback is and we can get defensive about it and afraid afraid of it, scared of it. But back to sports for a second. Imagine a coach giving a hockey player feedback on, hey. You gotta use your hips more.

Seth Silver [00:53:47]:
When you do that slapshot, I need you to twist your hips and put your weight into the slapshot, not just use your arms. Would any player get bent out of shape by that feedback? Would any player say, you’re embarrassing me. You mean I don’t use my hips? Right? I mean any any sports person will accept coach feedback willingly, eagerly, hungrily because they know it makes them into a better player. And if they’re a better player, the team has a better chance of winning. That’s the mindset that the workplace covenant can bring. I’m hungry for your feedback because I know if I live to that covenant, I’m a better performer. We’re a better team. We will all do better.

Seth Silver [00:54:28]:
And so you become eager for that feedback and not defensive about it. And I think that’s the other promise that the workplace covenant process has.

Scott McCarthy [00:54:37]:
I I I absolutely love that. And in fact, I’ll I’ll pull on to your your example there. And, you know, going with someone who you and I probably both know quite well and are very fond of is, you know, Carey Price, arguably

Seth Silver [00:54:50]:
the best coach.

Scott McCarthy [00:54:51]:
Best goalie in in the world. Guess what he has? He’s a goalie coach. Of course. And I and I guarantee you that goalie coach is not necessarily as good of a goalie as Carey Price is because Carey’s arguably, you know, one of the best goalies of all time. But he has someone who has an objective eye that can point out the little miss consistent little errors that Carey’s making in his game in areas where he can improve his game, right, that from a different angle, and that is feedback. And and Absolutely. Right? And he takes it and works with it constantly. So Yep.

Scott McCarthy [00:55:29]:
Yep. The famous guy. Gold tender.

Seth Silver [00:55:31]:
Yeah. The world’s greatest goaltender and and, Michael Phelps, though, one of the world’s greatest or arguably the greatest swimmer with that Tour

Scott McCarthy [00:55:37]:
of all

Seth Silver [00:55:37]:
time. Or something. Yep. You know, every great athlete, every great team has a great coach.

Scott McCarthy [00:55:43]:
Exactly. And I think if we can create a world where the culture of the organization is, you know, supervisors or supervisors, they have their managerial duties, but they also have coaching responsibilities. And if you can look at it through that lens, it becomes a lot easier to digest.

Seth Silver [00:56:02]:
One more thought, if I may. In the in in the introduction, we take great pains, and I don’t remember what page it is, but it’s about five or six pages into it. If we make clear, this book is not a leadership book because it’s not a prescriptive for me. It doesn’t say here are the 48 things that great leaders need to do or that you need to do as a leader, nor is it a team workbook, you know, as some books have come out and said, you know, here are the 18 things that great teams should do. But rather rather what it says is you will be a better and greater leader if you ask your team what do they need from you and you really listen to it, write it down, sign it, and agree to live by it. And you’ll be a much better team if you ask your manager what do you need to do for that manager’s success, and you write it down and sign it and agree to live to it. And and so that’s kind of an interesting thing. I I think I saw somewhere that you’re, you’re into martial arts.

Seth Silver [00:56:59]:
So you’re gonna like this analogy, I think. I too did martial arts and still do. And if you’ve ever judged sparring, k, when two people are sparring in a competition, as I have done, you know, there’s fighter a and fighter b. And and if you’re a judge, you know that if you only look at fighter a, you’ll miss what fighter b is doing in terms of kicks and punches. You just won’t see it much as much of it. And if you focus on fighter b, you miss what fighter a is doing. And so as a judge, you learn to look in the middle. You learn to look in what’s in between fighter a and fighter because only then will you see the fast kicks and punches and be able to say this one scored first and no worth the point.

Seth Silver [00:57:35]:
And so the book is about what’s in the middle. The book is not actually about what leaders need to do specifically or what the teams need to do specifically. It’s about that space in the middle in terms of how they interact and what they do to help the other side feel supported and be successful.

Scott McCarthy [00:57:54]:
That’s awesome. Seth, what a great way to wrap up this show. It’s been a fantastic conversation. One, I feel like we could just keep going for the whole night here. Yeah. But unfortunately, I’ll hear things.

Seth Silver [00:58:04]:
Oh, if you got a beer, I guess we could have a beer.

Scott McCarthy [00:58:06]:
Yeah. I’ll hit pause in the recording. No. But, you know, I’ll hear things. We must come to it then. But before we wrap up, I do got two last questions for you. And the first of those two being a question I ask all the guests here at the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast. And that is according to you, Seth Zoller, what makes a great leader?

Seth Silver [00:58:28]:
In my experience of coaching and doing executive coaching and working with leaders in workplace covenants, self awareness is probably one of the number one skills. Knowing how you come across, being willing to get that feedback, a certain dose of humility and self deprecating humor, Don’t take yourselves too seriously. Don’t get angry. Don’t get stuck emotionally. Lift other people. I know I’m kind of throwing a lot here. I’m not just giving you one single thing. But I I think view yourself as someone who lifts others up.

Seth Silver [00:59:01]:
I I saw a great TED talk by a woman who, is an expert on civility and incivility in the workplace, and I’m I’m forgetting her name right now, but it’s a wonderful TED talk. And she basically says there’s two kinds of leaders in the world, those who pull people down and those who lift others up. And I would, you know, advocate that you should be that person who helps people see what their talents and what their gifts are. I think gift is an interesting word to use. I learned that from Peter Block, who used to use that word. And, you know, it’s not it’s different than competent. Well, Scott, you’ve got a competency in interviewing guests on the radio. That’s kinda dry.

Seth Silver [00:59:37]:
But if I say you have a gift for bringing people out and making them feel relaxed, you have a gift for making others feel comfortable and sharing what they know to your audience. That’s kind of deeper, isn’t it? There’s a certain almost quasi spiritual innate tone to that. So, I think you should help people know their gifts and use their gifts. I think self awareness, self deprecating sense of humor, don’t take yourself too seriously. Those would be my major pieces of advice. And also have a life. Don’t make work the only thing. You know, some people are almost, you know, eighteen hours a day, seven days a week, and and that’s it’s not healthy.

Seth Silver [01:00:21]:
There’s no self care there. It’s not conducive to personal relationships. So I think balance is important.

Scott McCarthy [01:00:28]:
Absolutely. Couldn’t agree with Tamora. Hence why First Domains lead yourself. Right? And that’s what it’s all about. And final question of the podcast, how can people find you? How can they follow you? Shameless plug. It’s all about you right now.

Seth Silver [01:00:40]:
Oh, thank you. Silverconsultinginc.com is the website. I’ll repeat that. Silver, like silver and gold, consulting inc, all one word, dot com. Doctor. Seth r silver at g mail dot com is my email. Feel free to reach out and email. And then LinkedIn.

Seth Silver [01:01:00]:
I’ve got a fairly active LinkedIn profile. We my coauthor and I talk a lot about the book, and we put up these podcasts and other things that are going on and book signings. And very much encourage people to go to Amazon and find meaningful partnership at work. And please, you know, check it out, share it, give give it as a Christmas gift to your to your HR friends and your leadership friends and we’d be happy to discuss anything. Tim and I are also doing free webinars around the book if people want to buy a quantity of books we can discuss that offline but for a number of clients, we’re we’re doing a free one hour webinar about the content and you know they in turn are buying 30 or 40 books and we’re happy to do that. So thank you for that plug.

Scott McCarthy [01:01:45]:
Yeah. No worries. Awesome. And for the listener, it’s easy as always. Just go to livingforleadership.com/19719seven, and all those links are actually in the show notes already. So, Seth, again, thanks for taking time coming out and speaking to us about, you know, meaningful partnerships at work. It’s it’s fantastic conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Seth Silver [01:02:04]:
Thank you, Scott. Much appreciate it.

Scott McCarthy [01:02:10]:
And that’s a wrap for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast. But you know what you could do to truly support the podcast? And no, that’s not leaving a rating and review. It’s simply helping a friend, and that is helping a friend by sharing this episode with them If you think this would resonate with them and help them elevate their performance level, whether that’s within themselves, their teams, or their organization. So do that. Help me help a friend win win all around and hey, you look like a great friend at the same time. So just hit that little share button on your app and then feel free to fire this episode to anyone that you feel would benefit from it.

Scott McCarthy [01:03:00]:
Finally there’s always more. There’s always more lessons around being the highest performing leader that you can possibly be. Whether that’s for yourself your team or your organization. So why don’t you subscribe? Subscribe to the show via movingforwardleadership.com forward slash subscribe. Until next time, lead, don’t boss, and thanks for coming out. Take care now.