Emotional Intelligence Unleashed: Mastering High-Stakes Conversations | Bill Benjamin | Episode 338

Scott McCarthy [00:02:57]:
Bill, sir, welcome to the show. So good to have you here today.

Bill Benjamin [00:03:00]:
Awesome to be here. Thanks, Scott.

Scott McCarthy [00:03:02]:
Hey. So today, we’re talking about this concept that you have going on about the last 8% and, you know, with organizational culture and such. So I would just love to, you know, first off, like, what are we talking about? Like, when you say last 8%, I’ve never heard of a metric where we can actually, like, quantify culture. So I’m super interested here.

Bill Benjamin [00:03:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I know it piques interest, but it’s not intuitively obvious what it is. So let me explain. And I’ll do it in two parts. I’ll explain what the last 8% is, and then I’ll explain how that applies to culture. And so the last 8%, the the topic really came up about four or five years ago. We were working with two executives at a large organization, and they weren’t getting along like that ever happens.

Bill Benjamin [00:03:47]:
And, they were we were coaching them, and they were coached to have a conversation with each other about the impact they were having on each other. So they went and they had the conversation on their own. They come back from the conversation. The coaches, you know, individually ask them, how did it go? And they’re both like, oh, yeah. It went fine. Well, the coaches know better, so the coaches pushed a little bit, said, yeah. But did you say everything that we agreed you needed to say? And both of them said, essentially, I got 85, 90, 90 five percent of the way there and saying what I needed to say, and the other guy started reacting, and I stepped back. I held back.

Bill Benjamin [00:04:21]:
I didn’t really say that last five or 10%, the part that really needed to be said. So we took that concept and we did a, study on 34,000 people and determined that on average, it’s 7.56% rounded up to 8% that people feel they leave unsaid in a difficult conversation. Now as we workshop that, people said, well, it isn’t just tough conversations, last 3% conversations. There’s the tough decisions I face. There’s the easy ones where I know it’s gonna work out, everyone’s gonna be happy, but then there’s the ones where I’m taking risks. It’s uncertain or somebody’s not gonna be happy. Somebody’s gonna be upset with with my decision. And and so we really came to recognize that this whole last 8% is all about risk taking.

Bill Benjamin [00:05:07]:
The risk to step into a difficult conversation, the risk to try something new, the risk to make a a tough decision, and that that’s really what’s required to drive high performance. You don’t achieve, you don’t have to drive high performance, you don’t innovate without risk taking. So that last 8% is really all about that gap between the risk I know I should take and the risk I am taking.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:29]:
That’s super interesting. By the way, that’s a lot of interviews, by the way.

Bill Benjamin [00:05:33]:
Like, 200

Scott McCarthy [00:05:34]:
or 34,000 users.

Bill Benjamin [00:05:35]:
Didn’t interview all 34,000. There was a qualitative element and a qualitative element to it. So we didn’t

Scott McCarthy [00:05:42]:
we didn’t

Bill Benjamin [00:05:43]:
interview 34,000 people. There was 34,000

Scott McCarthy [00:05:45]:
people. It was a yeah. I wasn’t expecting 34,000, you know, of interviews face to face, but still be like, that would be a lot of data to sift through. Hopefully, you use them. Got AI doing it.

Bill Benjamin [00:05:54]:
A lot of data that’s shifting for sure.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:57]:
Yeah. But that’s interesting in law. So 8% left unsaid, they feel like. So and you you highlighted the, you know, the risk issue, which is great. I wanna dive into that bigger and deeper, obviously, but I’m interested. What makes people stop at that 8% average? Yeah. That

Bill Benjamin [00:06:16]:
that’s exactly the place to go. And just before we get there, what keeps us from stepping into the last 8%, taking the risk, is the the reason that we know that those last 80% moments are so important that we focus on them, is because of the cortisol effect. And and at IHHP, my company, we like both research and neuroscience. What we know is that under pressure, facing a difficult moment, when there’s uncertainty or tension or conflict, cortisol gets released into the brain, and that causes memories to sear in. So people remember how you showed up in that last 8% moment, that difficult time. They don’t don’t really remember what you’re doing in the 92% of moments when everyone’s getting along and that, you know, everyone was happy and the deadlines were being met. People remember how you showed up in the last 8% moment. So they have an outsized effect on your reputation, on your leadership, and ultimately on a culture.

Scott McCarthy [00:07:08]:
So it’s the whole cortisol. It’s kinda like a survival mechanism. Right? You know, that whole fight flight freeze type thing. Well, every everyone in that realm?

Bill Benjamin [00:07:19]:
You just led me right into the why do people struggle in their last 8% moments? Why don’t they step in? And and in our research, sixty eight percent of people faced with a last 8% moment, their predictable default behavior is like the two executives I described, they avoid. They don’t step in. Right? Or they only say some of it or don’t really or don’t make the tough decision or delay the decision or I I know when I was first learning this, sometimes when I was making a decision, I would let whoever was gonna scream the loudest if they didn’t get their way influence my decision because I didn’t wanna deal with that. So I didn’t always make the best decision. Sometimes I made the easier decision. So, yes, it’s it’s that, emotional system, the fight or flight, so the flight, that will cause us to avoid a difficult conversation. Now you may think, so that’s 68%, so most of your listeners, at least at least two thirds of them fall into the void category. Well, what about the other 32%? Well, I fall into that category sometimes.

Bill Benjamin [00:08:21]:
Sometimes I’m in that tough conversation. Somebody’s kind of attacking me. And rather than shutting down and and avoiding, I start attacking back, I start fighting back, and now I’m making a mess of it. So we talk about people either being avoiders or make a messers.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:37]:
Right.

Bill Benjamin [00:08:38]:
And it’s the emotional part of our brain, that fight or flight mechanism, that is what causes that fight or flight avoid make a mess in those tough last 10% moments. So you hit the nail on the head.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:53]:
Now did you, with your research, find, how many people because the new thing that people are talking about is fawning, where basically, you know, you give in and you cave and you just give the other person what they want to avoid the conflict as a whole. Where did that come in here?

Bill Benjamin [00:09:10]:
It’s a great point. We we didn’t differentiate in the research in the avoid, whether it was more just, you know, shutting down and not making a decision at all or not having a conversation, or it was kind of placating, giving in, you know, not saying no when you know you should say no. So you’re absolutely right. That that fawning, that telling the person what they wanna hear or agreeing something you don’t agree with is actually part of that avoidance. It’s an avoidance strategy.

Scott McCarthy [00:09:36]:
Okay. Great. So we know we know why we know why. Let’s dive a bit deeper now into the how, how do we now start we we understand, like, things are coming clear. Now how do we start mitigating? Like, oh, like, I’m sure the listeners there is like, I’m a fighter. As soon as someone gets their arms up, I get my back up. You know, it’s like the black cat, like. Right?

Bill Benjamin [00:10:00]:
Absolutely. And, you know, for for twenty six years, my organization, has been teaching emotional intelligence, self awareness, self regulation, empathy skills. So let me get to that. I do wanna get to that. Just before I do, just one more piece of context is just around is around that culture piece. So I love where you’re going, and it’s actually where people it’s like, okay. What do I do? I have this emotional system that gets triggered. What do I do? Just before we get there, I just want a little bit more context as to how to apply this and why it’s so important, and that’s around the culture piece.

Bill Benjamin [00:10:37]:
So what what we know is, you know, in an organization and, you know, we work with we work with the military. I I I know you’re in the service. We work with, you know, athletes. We work with lots of different organizations, pharmaceutical finance, hospitals, you can imagine. In order for someone to perform, to behave, you know, to a certain, you know, to to exhibit a certain behaviors that they will allow them to perform, There’s really two elements to it. It’s it’s fifty fifty. 50 percent of it is their own attitude and skills. So what we’re talking about, their ability to operate under uncertainty, how skillful they can be in last 80% moments.

Bill Benjamin [00:11:12]:
That’s 50%. The other 50% is the environment they operate within. For example, if you’re trying to create an environment where people speak up, but senior leaders are shooting their ideas down, they’re gonna be way less likely to speak up. So the culture piece is critical because you need both you need people having the individual skills and you need the environment where people feel safe to speak up. So in our culture work again, from our research, and and this time, it was a research study of 72,000 people. And then we didn’t interview 72,000 people, but there were 70,000 people involved in the quantitative aspects of this. We determined that there’s really two key pillars to a high performing culture. And this is also there’s a research by Sarah Sewell at Stanford and others, to back this up.

Bill Benjamin [00:11:56]:
So there’s two key pillars to a high performing culture. One is what we call connection. That’s people feeling valued, having a voice. They’re being trusted collaboration. And when most people do culture and values type work, engagement work, that’s what they really focus on. And that’s critical. Right? We we know that’s critical, that that piece. But a lot of organizations miss the second pillar, which is courage.

Bill Benjamin [00:12:20]:
That’s the ability to do difficult things, the ability to have a difficult conversation, to be skillful in the last 80% moment. So in a high performing culture, you really need that balance. And behaviorally, it shows up as high care and high accountability. And so we’ve actually developed a culture map and and there’s four quadrants. And I’ll just explain a couple of the quadrants. So if you think about a culture that is high courage but low connection, that’s a more transactional culture. Results matter over relationships. Toxic bad apples are allowed to exist because they get performance.

Bill Benjamin [00:12:55]:
It’s a high anxiety, high burnout environment. You know, people are afraid to speak up. So that’s a transactional culture.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:02]:
The, so sorry to cut you off. I just wanna interject quick. You know, Emilio, as you talked about that, the old case study of Uber comes to mind.

Bill Benjamin [00:13:11]:
Yes.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:12]:
Right? Like, boom. High high transaction, culture stank. So, you know, sexual misconduct in it, rampant, you know, all kinds of issues, but it didn’t matter. Expand. Go. Grow. Go. Go.

Bill Benjamin [00:13:24]:
Go. Yeah. More fear based.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:26]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Benjamin [00:13:26]:
And that kind of, culture can can actually get results for a period of time, but it’s not sustainable as as as they found.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:34]:
Yeah. %.

Bill Benjamin [00:13:35]:
The the other the other and and by the way, in in our research, 18% of teams we work with fall into that, that transactional category. And and, by the way, here’s another key point is that culture doesn’t exist across organizations. It exists on teams. So you can have an organization that has different cultures. So 18% of the teams we’ve worked with are in this transactional culture. Now now think of a culture that’s high in connection but low in courage. That’s a family culture. That’s a nice culture where people are unwilling to do hard things.

Bill Benjamin [00:14:14]:
It’s more of an avoidance culture. There’s less accountability. It’s slower decision making because everybody has to agree and everybody has to be happy and people don’t speak up because they wanna they wanna be liked. They want others to not get they don’t wanna upset others. And that’s actually the the bulk of our clients. 37% fall into the family culture. And some of our clients actually proudly say they’re a family culture. And we say, well, there’s lots of good about a family culture, but you’re not a family.

Bill Benjamin [00:14:42]:
You can’t fire your lowest performing kid. You you might want to some days, but but but you can’t. So you’re not a family culture. You know, where we’re trying to get clients to and in our culture map, it’s the upper right hand quadrant, is where there’s both high connection and high courage. So there’s high care and high accountability, which enables innovation, experimentation, there’s better collaboration. The tough things are being discussed. It’s a feedback rich environment. Inconvenient truths are being named.

Bill Benjamin [00:15:14]:
And we have an assessment where we can actually assess where an organization and a team is on this culture map. And and one of the behaviors that most organizations score a really low on is, you know, naming inconvenient truths on a team. Well, we all know what happens when the inconvenient truths aren’t named. Right? It, you know, it becomes toxic. It becomes, you know, it things don’t get addressed. So, the goal in terms of culture is to become that kind of high care, high connection, high accountability, high courage culture. So how does that tie into what we’ve just been discussing? Well, culture is a step because people remember the last 80% moments, the culture is established in last 80% moments. That’s what people remember.

Bill Benjamin [00:15:59]:
So to have a high connection, high courage culture, you need people and leaders showing up skillfully with courage and connection in those last 80% moments. That now brings us back to, okay, great, but how do how does a leader show up with high care and high connection, not avoidance, not making a mess in those last 8% moments? So just before we get to that how to, tell me if you’re gonna you have any thoughts or questions as I just sort of describe that that culture.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:29]:
Yeah. Actually, I would say, like, this is actually fantastic. I’m visualizing it as you’re explaining it. It’s super clear to me. So it has to be clear to the audience because they’re smarter than I am. So this is my learning. This is my this is my education here, Bill. Like, this is my, you know, this is like my fourth degree, basically.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:48]:
I’ve already got a three. God. I don’t know how that happened, but it did.

Bill Benjamin [00:16:52]:
You’re a learning you’re a learning man.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. So no. It’s fantastic. And I just visualize. Now I guess the one question I have is, do we find that teams will shift through the different quadrants at different times, you know, of the year? What’s in, you know, situations in front of them? Or is the expectation that you are always in that quadrant where it’s, like, high connection? Sorry. I’m brain farting here the second part of it. High conversion,

Bill Benjamin [00:17:23]:
high connection. Yep.

Scott McCarthy [00:17:24]:
Alright. Yeah. Conversion. You know, are we aiming to be in there all the time, or is there sometimes where we kinda get a, you know, slide around this thing?

Bill Benjamin [00:17:31]:
Well, there’s absolutely times when there’s a crisis or there’s a really serious deadline, but it’s not about one or this is this is kind of a a a good question because it can feel like well, it’s gotta be one or the other. And it it it doesn’t have to be. You can still show up. You can execute. You can hold somebody accountable. You can even configure your truth. You can drive to a deadline, but still be high care. Right? You can still, you know, show show up with empathy.

Bill Benjamin [00:17:57]:
And so it really is it’s not to be one or the other. So, yes, there are absolutely times when a team have to focus on a deadline, deliver, execute. And so it it’ll it’ll feel a bit more transactional, but it doesn’t have to become transactional or fear based. You know, then there’s times when, okay, the the the the smoke is cleared, we we got the deliverable, we’re strategizing, that feels like there’s more time in meetings, there can be more connection. But then you don’t wanna fall back into a family culture where, you know, there isn’t accountability and people are so it really is about, you know, on the average, showing up with both courage and connection, you know, throughout, you know, throughout all all the experiences of the team.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:41]:
Got it. Got it. For sure. Okay. Cool. Let’s launch. Let’s keep moving. Oh, I’m loving while I’m here.

Bill Benjamin [00:18:47]:
Great. Thank you. Alright. So so, again, and, you know, I deliver this as keynotes. Right? So I’ll have an hour, three hours, or whatever it is with a group. But, absolutely, you know, we spend an hour or so on this topic of, you know, what are your last 8% moments? Where is your team on the culture map? What would good to great look like? And then, you know, my challenge to each individual is, so what do you need to do to show up with more courage and connection? So to not avoid or not make a mess in order to contribute to a last 80% culture on your team. And the answer is, you need to learn to manage emotions. Because it’s that emotional system that, you know, triggers us into our avoid or make a mess behaviors which erodes courage and connection.

Bill Benjamin [00:19:28]:
So it really is about emotional intelligence. And for those of your listeners, maybe somehow a little bit of doubts about emotional intelligence, well, that sounds soft and and squishy. I have degrees in mathematics and computer science. So when I first heard the term emotional intelligence, I thought, oh, that’s a bunch of kumbaya. What I’ve learned is is, a, there’s some brain science to it, and b, there’s a lot of really great research starting with the Harvard, you know, research, Harvard University research that demonstrated that, you know, medical, business, and law school graduates who were measured for IQ technical skills and EQ. It was determined that IQ and technical skills were very poor predictors of success. Not because they’re not important, but because IQ and technical skills are threshold competencies. You need a certain amount of IQ and technical skills to do any job.

Bill Benjamin [00:20:17]:
I’ve delivered this training to surgeons. Do you want your surgeon high in IQ technical skills? Of course, you do. But even in the case of surgeons, they’re already they’ve had so much training. They’re already over the threshold. Getting more does not significantly differentiate their performance. So I shared, for example, a study with the surgeons that demonstrated that surgeons who are high in impulse control and empathy to emotional intelligence competencies, those surgeons get sued less often, which makes sense. Right?

Scott McCarthy [00:20:48]:
Right. Absolutely.

Bill Benjamin [00:20:49]:
So you bet the surgeons paid attention after that. So the Harvard research demonstrated that across all job functions, EQ, emotional intelligence, counted for twice as much as IQ technical skills combined in terms of determining who would be successful. And and and this was over a forty year longitudinal study. And they looked at success pretty broadly. They’re like the career wealth accumulation, but they also looked at personal and psychological factors, divorce rates, alcoholism. So this emotional intelligence is not just a tool to create a great culture and create be a great leader. It’s also how to be a great person and, you know, family man and spouse and partner and and, you know, parents. So that’s kind of why EI matters.

Bill Benjamin [00:21:30]:
K. So it’s critical, you know, to to success. It’s critical to, you know, showing up skillful in your last 8% moments and creating a high performing culture. So how do you get better at it? Well, it starts with self awareness. Anybody who’s, you know, looked at anything involving emotional intelligence by the way, Dan Gollum originally wrote the book in 1996. So emotional intelligence is not some fad that’s, you know, kinda going away. It’s it’s it’s here to stay. And it always starts with self awareness.

Bill Benjamin [00:21:57]:
Are you aware of how your emotions are impacting you and and driving your behavior and what impact that’s having? So an example is, again, when I was first learning this, if I was in a meeting and I was sharing an idea trying to be innovative and somebody made a suggestion that felt like a criticism, I would immediately get defensive. That’s a natural emotional reaction to feeling criticized in front of others. Okay. But, you know, what does that do to my reputation? Oh, Bill does listen. He’s not open to feedback. Not only for that person, but for everyone else in the room. I just created a last 8% moment that establishes my reputation. Now it doesn’t mean I accept people criticizing me in meetings, but how I respond in that moment sends a huge message.

Bill Benjamin [00:22:41]:
So first of all, we have to have the awareness of of of how our emotions drive our behaviors. And

Scott McCarthy [00:22:47]:
k.

Bill Benjamin [00:22:47]:
Really so go ahead, Scott.

Scott McCarthy [00:22:49]:
So, and may maybe I’m jumping ahead of you again. But, you know, I I quickly had a quick check of the stats there because I knew it was super low, and they say only about ten to fifteen percent of people are truly self aware. Well, 95% believe they are.

Bill Benjamin [00:23:06]:
Tasha Urichs. Yep. Tasha Urichs.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So one, you know, do you have any tips for leaders out there like, hey. Am I actually self aware? Like, to actually test themselves. And two, once they realize, because most likely, that they’re not actually self aware, How do we actually improve that skill?

Bill Benjamin [00:23:26]:
Yeah. Great. Great. Great. Great question. And and we’ve been doing this work, like I said, for for twenty six years. So there’s there’s a number of things one can do around self awareness. The first thing, you know, for me was because I’m a logical analytical person, to understand that that that there’s brain science to it.

Bill Benjamin [00:23:43]:
In other words, I get triggered because of my fight or flight reaction. And so to understand what’s happening in your brain emotionally, that it isn’t that I’m a bad person who gets defensive when I’m criticized. No. That’s just the way my brain start it’s it’s trying to defend me. It’s the same system that would defend me if I was in the jungle and there was a tiger jumping out at me. I need to learn, you know, how that system functions. What are some of my triggers? You know, I get triggered by people who are late. I have a big valley around being on time.

Bill Benjamin [00:24:13]:
So that’s a trigger for me. I get triggered by being criticized. I you know, so so learning, getting to know your triggers, your emotional system, and then your default behaviors. Right? Do I avoid? Do I make a mess? And by the way, there’s there’s different situations. Right? It’s very contextual. There might be some situations where I’m more likely to avoid a client that’s getting upset. But my teenage daughter that’s yelling at me, I know, I’m much more likely to yell back. Right? And by the way, all I’m doing in that moment, for those of you who have kids, when I’m yelling at my daughter to stop yelling, is teaching her in a last 8% moment, I’m modeling to yell.

Bill Benjamin [00:24:49]:
I’m literally creating neuropathways in her brain that say, you yell when you’re frustrated. So we are walking models to our kids, but but also for those that, you know, lead people, employees or anybody on a team, we’re walking models. So that’s one piece is is to really, really understand the brain science of it, and and what some of your triggers are and what some of your default behaviors are. Another great way, because you are correct that and and by the way, I love that data that 85% of people think they are self aware, but only 10 to 15% are. And I’m a math guy, so if if I assume I’m in the 10 or 15%, I’ve got an 85 to 90% chance of being wrong that I think I’m self aware. So and the hard thing is so we’re all very bad at evaluating our own self awareness. So you want to get input from others. One of the best ways to do that because people sometimes are afraid to give us feedback is a three sixty assessment where you get anonymous feedback from all the people around you.

Bill Benjamin [00:25:54]:
That’s a very powerful, a tough I’ve I’ve done, you know, many of them in my life. You know, even though I’ve been working on this for for twenty five years, I still sometimes learn things in three sixty. I’m like, oh, gosh. Okay. I’m doing that. So that three sixty process, in lieu of that, is to find some some key people, a mentor, you know, people who you would consider to be a friend at work, and give them permission to give you feedback. So where where they would feel safe. And so here I’ll give you an example.

Bill Benjamin [00:26:26]:
So, again, you know, one one of my challenges, I can kinda be a bit more of a make a messer than an avoider. And one of my make a mess behaviors is to start interrupting people. Ask me in a calm moment if I think that’s a good leadership culture behavior. Of course not. Get me a little triggered emotionally. Get me feeling like I’m right and I have to get my point across and I start interrupting people. So I actually, you know, gave some some key people that I work with who can observe me, who are in meetings with me, their permission to say if I start interrupting to say, hey, Bill. Let’s slow down.

Bill Benjamin [00:26:59]:
So not calling me out and for Bill, you’re interrupting now because now I’m feeling called up. But, hey, Bill. Let’s slow down. So to find some key people at home too, by the way, because all of these behaviors, they show up at home. Again, somebody you trust, somebody is not gonna, you know, use it against you, you know, to to give you that feedback, that that that self awareness. And and then the, you know, the final thing I’ll say is is to get a coach. Again, whether that’s, you know, a formal coach that you pay, an informal coach, a mentor, a friend, somebody that you can talk through things with and they can give you some feedback and say, Philip, it sounds like the way you handled that might not have been the most skillful. What was going on for you? Oh, yeah.

Bill Benjamin [00:27:41]:
You’re right. Because you can you can gain self awareness by by looking at how you showed up, like, looking at the past. Right? We don’t wanna ruminate and focus on the past, but we can learn from it and then say, okay, next time, I’d like to show up more skillfully. So that’s that self awareness piece.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:57]:
That’s a lot of lot of awesome, you know, bombs there for for the listener, for sure. A lot a lot of actual things. I I really like, though, the interrupting one. Yeah. So what I heard from you there was, one, kinda like get those trusted agents. Like, hey. You know, I trust you. You’re you’re you’re my agent.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:17]:
And two, kinda like associating a code word that that only you and them know.

Bill Benjamin [00:28:21]:
Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:22]:
But at the same time, doesn’t, you know, affect you negatively, like, your credibility for the team and stuff like that. I thought that was absolutely awesome. I just wanna highlight that.

Bill Benjamin [00:28:31]:
And and if you’re an avoider, it can be because, hey, Bob. We we we’d love to hear your thoughts on this. You know, I know this is this is you know, we’re all feeling, you know, some tension around this, and we really want you to, you know, kinda hear from you, you know, even though we’re all feeling some tension. So something like that. So it can work whether you’re an avoider or make a messer. Yeah. That that’s it. That that that

Scott McCarthy [00:28:52]:
This is the first time I ever heard that. Avoider or make a messer. I love it.

Bill Benjamin [00:28:56]:
Alright. We all we all do both sometimes.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:59]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So we’ve talked a lot about, emotional intelligence a bit. You’re diving in self awareness. The question I had long ago, which, time passed point, I think was, like, you know, from your standpoint, what is emotional intelligence? Because there’s a lot of I there seems to be, like, the standard, but then, you know, everyone has kind of their spin on it. So I wanna make sure that we’re all on the same page when we talk about emotional intelligence, but I feel like we’re going down that whole that Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.

Bill Benjamin [00:29:27]:
Great question. I mean, Dan Golan originally defined it, you know, the the almost 30 ago now. There’s you know, most people’s definition has two parts to it. One is the ability to recognize, understand, and manage your own emotions, and then recognize, understand, and influence the emotions of others is the second part. We have to start with self, because we can’t really connect. We can’t see other people’s emotions if we’re triggered, if if we’re because by the way, when we become triggered, that emotional part of our system is trying to protect us. It becomes more self referential, and so it’s very hard to connect, show empathy, if if we’re a little bit triggered. The other question I wanna answer, Scott, is you asked earlier.

Bill Benjamin [00:30:06]:
So so what do I do if I start to feel triggered? So there’s the awareness that it’s happening. Then once you, are aware that it’s happening, we have a strategy called the SOS. And we actually developed this with the US Navy twenty five ish years ago. And we intentionally use the SOS metaphor in part because it’s the navy and in part because we’re kinda sneaking underwater and we wanna get back above water. So when you feel that trigger, you feel yourself moving toward the avoid, make a mess response. The first task is stop. So disengage from the trigger, not as an avoidance strategy, but so that you can reengage more skillfully. Take a drink of water, take a deep breath.

Bill Benjamin [00:30:49]:
If you’re alone, go for a walk. If you’re alone, don’t send that email. Put it in the draft folder, you know. And and, you know, go do something that gives you some sense of common peace. So so kinda disconnect. The o is oxygenate. That’s your deep conscious breath. The intake of a large amount of oxygen actually has the physiological effect of minimizing the chemicals that your emotional system is released, the cortisol, the adrenaline, it actually dissipates that.

Bill Benjamin [00:31:15]:
And then the s the the third point is seek information. And we start by seeking information about what can help us. Because typically, we’re amplifying the negative. Our emotional system is designed to do that. If we’re in the jungle and there we know there’s a tiger and we hear wind rustling in the bushes, we have to assume the wind is a tiger. Well, the emotional system reacts as though that wind was actually a tiger. So now it’s two tigers. There’s the real one and and and the wind we’re imagining.

Bill Benjamin [00:31:42]:
So you kinda wanna check-in with yourself and seek information as new. Is this wind or tiger? Am I able to find the negative? Is that person really trying to disrespect me? Are they really not agreeing with you? Are they really you know, so we we we check our thinking. So I could go into that in more detail. We have an hour in our training on the SOS strategy, but I just wanted to give people a tool where in that moment when you feel yourself triggering, you do your SOS.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:05]:
Yeah. No. I I actually love to go a little bit deeper. And one of the things which I hear and feel free to say I’m right or wrong, But at the end there, one of the things I always find is, how do you listen? Are you listening to understand, or are you listening to respond? So I had a superior once. God, it was terrible. That guy listened to only respond. It was, like, when we were in that 8% zone as you refer to, it was just like Yeah. I was just like I actually had to give up, and it wasn’t because I didn’t wanna resolve the problem.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:40]:
It was because he would just not listen to me. It was always, yeah, but yeah. But but but yeah. I understand. However, yeah. Yeah. All these, like, dude, shut up. And, actually, one time, he and he cut me off.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:57]:
This is a funny story. So he cut me off, and he went on this random tangent, you know, and then and he stopped. And then I looked at him, and he looked at me. I looked at him. He looked at me, and I was, like, dead cunt. So if I was able to finish my point, and I said whatever it was, and he was like, oh, that’s a really good valid point. I was like, thank you. Bleep bleep bleep bleep in my mind, of course.

Bill Benjamin [00:33:25]:
That sounds like a very severe case, and we are all guilty at times of listening to respond, listening to confirm our point of view, listening to what we’re gonna do next. And that that’s why it’s so important to to manage these emotions because when we get triggered, we actually lose some of our cognitive thinking. We become more certain we’re right. You know, managing that SOS so that we can be more move from certainty. When we get a little bit triggered, we actually become more certain, and we wanna move to curiosity. So that manager emotions at doing your SOS actually allows you to be more curious and to start and listening is something I’ve been working on my my whole life. And I have definitely improved, and I still have a lot of work to do. And that kinda empathetic listening, really being curious, really understanding their point of view.

Bill Benjamin [00:34:13]:
I I think sometimes people worry that if they allow the person to finish or let the person share their point of view, they’re gonna have to agree or give in. They’re gonna have to be wrong. Ego gets in the way. And we make really clear that connecting, listening, you know, being empathetic doesn’t mean agreeing. It doesn’t mean giving. It doesn’t mean being wrong. It simply means understanding their point of view so that if you do want to kind of, you know, challenge what they’re saying, you’re starting from their point of view. And by the way, they have felt heard.

Bill Benjamin [00:34:44]:
And typically, it isn’t they’re wrong and I’m right. It’s there’s some version of the truth and there’s some solution and some combination. And if we can collaborate together, we’ll build a better solution or we’ll come to a a better outcome. And so it isn’t usually about right or wrong anyway. Right? It’s different points of view. It’s different perspectives. And, you know, any, you know, any one of us is you know, any any two of us are smarter than one of us or whatever that statement is.

Scott McCarthy [00:35:11]:
So Yeah. That’s great. I I I totally agree with you. Like, it’s somewhere in the messy middle, and and I guess this is, you know, the whole point of this conversation is, like, alright. How do we gotta figure this messy this mess out and get through these barriers to, one, understand each other. But, ultimately, I refer to this focusing on the desired end state. Super military term, but, basically, what outcome do you want. Right? Where do you wanna end up? And if we can focus on that, now we’re gonna get some.

Bill Benjamin [00:35:43]:
It it’s so powerful in business. And and, honestly, for your listeners, it’s so powerful personally with your spouses, with your partners, kids, mother in laws, whatever it is, to be able to not be so reactive, to listen skillfully, not agree, not give in, but allow that person to share their point of view and then, you know, kind of adjust your point of view or your thinking or, you know, you’re convincing based on their point of view. It’s or just sometimes, especially with kids, just listening, just connecting. Sometimes they just wanna feel heard and validated, and you don’t even have to solve it or tell them what to do or that whole I mean, it’s so powerful in in relationships that they get at work and at home.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:22]:
Yeah. Awesome. Now, Bill, near the beginning of the show, we hinted at risk. We we kinda touched it a bit, and we haven’t, you know, you know, dove into it. So, you know, last bit of the show here, I’d like to first touch on risk because as a leader, take your risk is fundamental. You you just have to. Like, you’re not gonna stay in a soft, safe, cushy zone all the time. You eventually will have to take risks.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:47]:
So I wanna dive deeper into that in your point of view.

Bill Benjamin [00:36:50]:
Yeah. By the way, I love that you came back to that. And to me, we actually have been talking about it the whole time. We just haven’t named it specifically. So Fair. In order to be high performing, we need to take risks to step into those tough conversations, to do things where there’s uncertainty, and I might not all of that is about managing emotions. The whole discussion with just that that self awareness of why am I not taking this risk, what’s holding me back, to managing that so that I can step in more skillfully, do my SOS, and give, you know, give this project a try or whatever it is. So it it that whole risk taking piece, which is critical, that naming and can be in truths, all of those things we talked about, about it being open to critical feedback, being open to someone making suggestions that, you know, you don’t agree with.

Bill Benjamin [00:37:34]:
All of that is about risk taking, and it’s all about managing emotions. So I love that you came back to that because at the end of the day, you know, for clients that engage with us, you know, they don’t wanna build a great culture and great leaders just to be nice to everyone. They’ve got a it’s it’s about executing, driving their strategy and performance. And that’s where the risk taking part comes in. Is in order to be high performing, you you have to and and innovative because, you know, every organization, you know, the the speed of innovation and not, oh, we just developed a new iPhone. Even innovating on process, innovating on small communication with like, just even those small innovations still require risk taking and the speed we need to operate at is so much higher now with with technology, with everything going on. So, the risk taking is absolutely more critical than ever.

Scott McCarthy [00:38:23]:
No. Absolutely. And I say often that, like, the world’s changing at such a pace. Like, things can change, like, in in this scope of just this amount of time of the podcast. Right? We’ve been on now for thirty six minutes. Who knows why it’s changed, especially in the current climate. Not engaged. Something has hopefully changed.

Scott McCarthy [00:38:42]:
Let me tell you. Well, that being said, is you know, we’ve hit a lot. We’ve we’ve talked about emotional intelligence. We’ve talked about, you know, freeze, flight, flight, Fawn, all that’s you know, the reactions. We’ve talked about risk taking, talked about your SOS program, the quadrants. Is there something we haven’t hit?

Bill Benjamin [00:39:03]:
I mean, there is more depth, in terms of, you know, things like how do you coach someone, How do you actually what’s a template for actually stepping into a tough conversation? You know, there’s other emotional management strategies. So there are other things that that are part of our and we have two days of of training programs that, you know, we just kinda summarized in probably thirty seven minutes now. So, yes, there is deeper work. And, you know, if people are interested, my website, our website is ihhp.com. That’s the Institute for Health and Human Potential. There’s lots of great resources. They’re free resources. You know, there is actually a little self assessment you can do.

Bill Benjamin [00:39:45]:
And, you know, so there’s there’s lots of resources there for people who who do wanna live more.

Scott McCarthy [00:39:49]:
Awesome. And for you to listen, there’s always those links, any Bill’s contact info, it’s gonna be in the show notes of this episode. You just go to leaddumbboss.com forward slash the episode number in digits, and they’ll be there. Bill, like, you you’ve talked about, like, a lot of things we haven’t touched on. You started going, I feel like we’re gonna have to do round two. I feel like there’s more to come out of this yet. This has been an absolute jam packed episode. So thank you so much for, jumping on today.

Bill Benjamin [00:40:17]:
Thank you, Scott. I had fun. I would love to do round two. The only thing I’ll tell people is I’m very active on LinkedIn. I post articles, new ideas, favorite quotes. I’m all you know, so if anybody’s on LinkedIn, I’m Bill Benjamin, Institute for Health and Human Potential, have reached out to me on LinkedIn. And, Scott, great great to work with you.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:35]:
Thank you so much, sir.

Bill Benjamin [00:40:37]:
Alrighty. Okay. Take care.