Mastering Psychological Safety: Insights from Parenting and Military Leadership | Scott McCarthy | Episode 320

Scott McCarthy [00:00:01]:
Yes. Good day. It is your chief leadership officer. Welcome to this week’s installment of military leadership insights, where I talk about my personal experiences as a senior officer with it in the Canadian Army to bring you so much leadership goodness. Now this week, I’m going to change it up. Normally, these are quick short hit shows, but today, I’m actually going to drop an interview, which I was on, as in I was being interviewed. That’s my talk with Larry Hagner over at the dead edge podcast. Larry had me on the show where we were talking about leadership from a psychological safety standpoint.

Scott McCarthy [00:00:41]:
And if you’ve been following the podcast for any amount of time, you hear me talk about that a lot as it is one of the 3 ways in which we execute leadership. The other 2 being character based decision making, and then finally, a balanced alignment approach to leading your organization. And I do touch those 2 a little bit on the show with Larry, but we do pretty much just focus in on psychological safety aspect. Now, you’re gonna hear a lot of great things. I can’t recommend Larry and his show. I personally listen to it. So recommend it so much. And, you’re gonna hear a lot of different things.

Scott McCarthy [00:01:27]:
And Larry has a little bit different approach than what I do. I’m all about let’s get down to business, with my interviews. Whereas in his show, you’ll hear a lot more about my personal background, family life, and such. But, nonetheless, it is a great episode. So with further ado, why don’t you sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation where I’m getting interviewed with Larry Hagner.

Podcast Announcer [00:02:02]:
Welcome 1. Welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast, a weekly podcast series dedicated to helping you hit peak performance across the three domains of leadership. Those being leading yourself, leading your team, and leading your organization. This podcast couples my 20 years of military experience as a senior Canadian army officer with world class guests to bring you the most complete podcast of leadership going. And for more, feel free to check out our website at movingforwardleadership.com. And with that, let’s get to the show.

Larry Hagner [00:02:50]:
Scott McCarthy. What’s up, man? How are you?

Scott McCarthy [00:02:56]:
You know, I used to do martial arts back in the day, and I think that’s, like, the first time I ever got, like, the Bruce Buffer intro. Oh

Larry Hagner [00:03:04]:
my god. Like, I cannot like, that guy’s got a crazy voice. The funny thing is is, you know, this is our last year for for the summit, because we’re gonna be doing a lot of really cool, events next year. So we’re doing, like, a rite of passage for fathers and sons on April 12th. We’re doing me, Ryan Mickler, Matt Bordeaux, and Connor Beaton are doing a, a combined community event. It’s called the forge, the men’s forge. That’s gonna be in May, and then I’m doing a daddy daughter retreat in June. So we decided we’re gonna push aside the summit for a year and, do those instead for 2025.

Larry Hagner [00:03:39]:
But every single year when we kick off the summit, like, I’ll get on that mic, and at the top of my lungs, man, I’ll be like, it’s time. Like, and I’ll yell it, like, scream it. And I’ll even hold that note of, like, as long as I can. You know? Love it. Yeah. I try I try to harness Bruce Buffer, but that guy’s got a gift. Like, no other He’s

Scott McCarthy [00:04:03]:
got a gift.

Larry Hagner [00:04:03]:
That voice, man.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:05]:
So That’s awesome.

Larry Hagner [00:04:06]:
Well, dude, welcome back to the podcast. Like, it’s so good to to see you back here, man. And I’m so so excited about what we’re talking about today.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:15]:
Bro, it’s been just over 3 years. So I I went and hunted my first my first, appearance on the show, and it was what was it? 21 October, I think, or 18 October some no. Today is 8 18 that we’re recording. I got it up here somewhere. I was like, wow. It’s like oh, anyway. World story, just over 3 years since I’ve been on. So I am stoked to be back.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:38]:
Thanks for having

Larry Hagner [00:04:39]:
me back. That is that’s mind blowing to me. Like, I I how fast, like, just time actually goes because I mean, like, I I ran into a buddy of mine. He actually was a client of mine a few years back, and, he’s local here in Saint Louis, and I was coaching him. And, he asked me. He’s like, hey, man. Like and he he was like this guy who is pretty overweight, and he and, he came to me because he wanted to be coached around marriage and mindset and everything, and that turned into him going on a 1 year health journey and then actually getting into the boxing ring with a guy. Like, he’s never he never boxed in his entire life.

Larry Hagner [00:05:16]:
And I ran into more Patrick

Scott McCarthy [00:05:18]:
Paul, was it? Yeah.

Larry Hagner [00:05:21]:
Where oh, I just that hurt my heart, man, to watch that fight.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:26]:
I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t even watch it, to be honest. And I and I heard, I missed nothing. So, other than, like, Netflix pixelation and, Mike Tyson kinda you know, there’s all kinds of conspiracy theories going out there now. I’m just like, I don’t think I’m gonna take part of it.

Larry Hagner [00:05:44]:
You know what? Let let’s talk about this for a second. I know we’re we’re kinda hitting a squirrel here, but it’s it’s interesting. I mean, this is, like, kinda like in the headlines right now. But anyway, going back to time moves fast. He got in the box ring. He’s like, I was like, dude, I was like, when I was catching up with him, he’s like, you believe that was 3 years ago? And I was like, what? What? Because I sponsored the event for him and, was I was actually in the ring doing stuff like speaking to the crowd and stuff like that. So it was like, super cool. Like, I’ve never spoken a boxing ring.

Larry Hagner [00:06:11]:
And I was like, that was 3 years ago. He’s like, yeah, I was like, oh, my god. That literally feels like last year. He’s like, I know. I can’t believe But, yeah, time moves fast. But back to this fight, I I don’t know whether to be pissed about it, whether to be, like, show maybe even a bit of respect around it because, like, there’s all kinds of things that I’ve heard. And you and I recording this, like, literally after the weekend, it went out and Right after. Yeah.

Larry Hagner [00:06:38]:
But, like, what I saw, I was pissed because, like, that like, I grew up with Tyson. Like, he was like the the coolest thing ever. Well, like, I remember when Mike Tyson’s punch out came out and it was like the hottest game ever. And

Scott McCarthy [00:06:51]:
It was so good.

Larry Hagner [00:06:52]:
It was so good. And to to see that guy, like, just in his prime and, like, you know, just launch people from one side of that ring to the other in the first round. And then, I mean, I was I was really hoping, man, that, like, he was gonna lay one into Jake Paul, and he was gonna fly through the air. And I saw a little bit of Mike in that first round, and then after that, I never saw him in that fight again. And but the story I’m telling myself is, like, I think he had a injured knee. He’s 58 years old. He’s probably out there doing the best he can. And then Jake Paul, like, from what I understand, I know it’s rumors, like, he was going at, like, 50%, and his thing was I just didn’t wanna hurt him.

Larry Hagner [00:07:30]:
So I’m like and I but I also wonder, like, I’m watching Mike, like, bite his thumb on the and I’m wondering, like, okay. Was he doing that because he was nervous? Or was he doing that because he was afraid he was gonna hurt Jake if he went all out? I have no idea. I there’s all kinds of things.

Scott McCarthy [00:07:44]:
His brother.

Larry Hagner [00:07:44]:
What are your thoughts on it, though? I’m just curious. I know you didn’t see it, but, like, what are your thoughts?

Scott McCarthy [00:07:49]:
I don’t know, man. Like, you know, real so two sides of Scott on this one.

Podcast Announcer [00:07:57]:
Realist side as in the money

Scott McCarthy [00:08:00]:
real real realist says, you know what? The way the contract was structured, I can see why Mike held back. Because apparently, the way the contract is structured, longer the fight went, the more money Mike got. I’m just like Great.

Larry Hagner [00:08:12]:
Yeah. What? I did not know that. You see this what I’m talking about?

Scott McCarthy [00:08:15]:
Yeah. I read that. Now I can’t confirm that’s true or not, so take that with a grain of salt.

Larry Hagner [00:08:19]:
Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:20]:
You know, if that’s true, I can understand. The other side of the realist guy is like, man, Tyson, like, dude, like I said, I used to I used to do MMA. Like, you go away. You give it all. You you you don’t leave anything. Like, that’s part that’s, like, that’s the part of the in into you. Like, you show up. I remember I was fighting.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:42]:
I had both nose, nostrils, blood coming down. They had to stuff it, tape it so the blood would stop. Like, he was full of blood. And I’m just like, I don’t care. I’m getting my ass kicked. I’m still going there. So I’m just like, part of me wants to say Mike still wanted to do that. Right? And and come out.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:59]:
But, like, in the same time, it’s like like you say, it’s 58. Yeah. I can’t imagine. So this I’m torn. I don’t know what to believe. So I’m kind of just avoiding everything and just, you know, what? Let it be whatever it it was what it was. You know, kudos to Mike for getting back in the ring. My only thing, and here’s my thing, and and this is the reason why I haven’t I didn’t watch it, and I haven’t watched MMA for a long time, and is that I find the sports, you know, overarching, the sports overarching, there’s so much respect that’s lost out of the sports that I just, I I can’t relate to it anymore.

Scott McCarthy [00:09:37]:
All this pre show gaming crap that goes on, you know, I get it. They’re trying to drive the hype, get people excited, peep pay per views and money and blah blah blah blah blah. But there’s such a lack of respect now in the sport. I just can’t associate myself with that anymore. Now I still train. Actually, it’s funny because that edge, like, my family and I, we actually do karate now on Sundays as there are 4 of us together. So I’m still in this yeah. Yeah.

Larry Hagner [00:10:06]:
Yeah. Okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:07]:
So the yeah. It’s it’s pretty cool. I’m not a big karate guy because I find it very rigid, and I’m more of, you know, mixed martial art jujitsu guy. But, you know, I don’t care. I’m just, like, with my boys and my wife, and who cares. Right?

Larry Hagner [00:10:21]:
Yeah. You know, it’s like the it doesn’t matter. Right? If we can if we can be more dangerous as a family, you know, and and make quality time, like, dude, like, I know you got 2 boys. And, like, I think about, like I mean, think about that for a second. If your dad and mom were doing martial arts with you, like, the martial art itself would matter. Like, the experience alone and the memories are just, like, my family is savage. We all do martial arts together. Like, I love it, man.

Larry Hagner [00:10:51]:
That’s so cool. Well, how long you guys been doing that

Scott McCarthy [00:10:53]:
for me? It off. We got a military family and military dad. Wife just retired, from the military. So Afghan vets.

Larry Hagner [00:11:02]:
Oh my gosh. That’s unreal. So how long you guys been doing this?

Scott McCarthy [00:11:08]:
I’d say, yeah, about 3, 4 months now.

Larry Hagner [00:11:10]:
Okay. Cool. Yeah. What’s Definitely new. What’s been some of the coolest things that have come out of this experience just as you guys as family, like, sitting around the dinner table talking about, like, you know, what you’re learning?

Scott McCarthy [00:11:20]:
I think, yeah, I think it’s for actually from the boys’ perspective to see me on the same plane as them. So I didn’t bring back my, my original belts. Right? So since since I’m starting off as a white belt. So so my oldest is actually an orange, orange belt in karate. So he’s actually a higher belt than me. So I actually make it, I make it a point to be on the lower end of the of the of the line when you when you line up. Right? It’s always in belt order, right, as a rank structure system. So I always go to the far side away, like, as in the newest guy.

Scott McCarthy [00:11:55]:
And for them to see, like, me dad being, like, the new guy, in it, I think for them to go and look at me and go, yeah, I’m learning too. I think that’s kinda like to me, that’s the coolest part.

Larry Hagner [00:12:06]:
Yeah, man. That that is awesome. Just that experience for them to see their dad through those eyes, you know, and I love the fact that he outwrites you. That’s so cool.

Scott McCarthy [00:12:15]:
Yeah. It’s awesome. Right?

Larry Hagner [00:12:16]:
So when yeah. What you have to call him sir, maybe in class?

Scott McCarthy [00:12:21]:
No.

Larry Hagner [00:12:21]:
Not yet? I don’t know.

Scott McCarthy [00:12:23]:
Not yet.

Larry Hagner [00:12:24]:
That’s cool. Yeah. So I know one of the topics we’re gonna talk about today, is psychological safety and being a leader. So Yes, sir. I have my own, obviously, interpretation of what psychological safety is all about, and, obviously, leadership and all that good stuff. But tell me about what is your interpretation of psychological safety through the lens of a leader? And by the way, if you’re a husband, you’re a leader. If you’re a dad, you’re a leader. If you’re in the workplace, you’re a leader.

Larry Hagner [00:12:57]:
And if you’re in the community, well, you’re a leader.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:00]:
Yeah.

Larry Hagner [00:13:00]:
And there are some leaders that people really love being around, and some of them are like, I don’t even wanna be around that person. They’re scary.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:08]:
Alright, man. So actually, I’m gonna flip the question back at you because I’m gonna set this up. Alright? What’s leadership?

Larry Hagner [00:13:16]:
So leadership in in my opinion is developing the people around you and leading them to their and helping them achieve the goals that they wanna achieve and developing it helping them develop the skills to go get those.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:33]:
Alright. That’s you know, it’s beautiful. I will never say it’s a wrong definition. So, again, everything’s from my perspective, where I stand and all this. Right? So I’ve been doing the leadership game now. You know, I got 23 years and counting in the Canadian Army, which is, you know, obviously, big leadership as a senior officer in the Canadian Army now. Lead, as I told you before, we hit record, our country’s largest supply depot now. So a lot of a lot of responsibility there, but I’ve been doing my own podcast, my own research and all this stuff.

Scott McCarthy [00:14:03]:
And what I’ve come up to realize, I don’t define leadership as much as like a definition per se, but I’m like, okay, what what makes up leadership? And you hit where 99.9% of people hit, when I asked that question, which is on one part of it. And that is what I refer to as the human interaction part. Right? Which is super crucial. That is, you know, how we interact with people, you know, how we motivate them, inspire them, get, you know, it helped them to achieve goals, whether it be ours or theirs. Okay. But there’s other components as well. Okay. So there’s another component actually is resource management, which is super strange.

Scott McCarthy [00:14:45]:
So many people are like, wow, that’s management. That’s not leadership. Like, well, actually it is. Because if we think about it, in order to achieve what you just set out that you said is leadership, you need to have some kind of resources. You need, whether that’s time, personnel, equipment, supplies, what have you, you need some form of resource to be able to manage. Now, what brings these things together? And that is decision making. As leaders, we need to decide. We need we make decisions.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:19]:
Whether or not to not decide decide on something is actually a decision. It’s like, hey, I’m gonna delegate this to Joe or Larry. That’s actually a decision. You go ahead. You decide. I’m actually making a decision right there. So that’s what I refer to the components. Now when we go and look at these components, so human interaction, resource management, and the decision making, we realize there’s 3 different domains that go ahead and hand in hand with these components.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:49]:
And those are leading yourself, leading your team, and leading your organization. So human interaction lines up nicely with a team. Decision making lines up beautifully with self, and then resource management lines up with your organization. Okay? So human interaction, leading team, how do we achieve leading that team? We achieve that through psychological safety. That’s the how we actually do it. Okay? So for the other 2, and believe me, we can have podcast episodes on the other 2, how do we lead our, ourselves? We do that through character based, leadership and decision making. And then finally with the organization, we do it from a balanced, structure standpoint. Right? So we look at how, balance alignment structure.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:40]:
K? So today, we’re gonna focus on leading the team and psychological safety. How does that sound?

Larry Hagner [00:16:46]:
It sounds good, but I have a question for you. Shoot. Okay. So, I’ve really, really been keen on this one time. I wanna the questions around leading yourself. Right? I’m gonna say a statement here, and I want you to crumple it up, throw it in the trash if you want, or I want you to highlight it if you want, or I want you to be like, that makes no difference or that’s that’s a huge difference maker, whatever it is. Right? And that is if if we cannot effectively lead ourselves, I don’t think we can effectively lead anybody. And what I mean by that is I go back to, like, Ed Mylett’s book, right, which is something I’ve been experiencing now for the past, I guess, a 140 days, which is I’ve been pretty much I’ve been doing 75 hard for a 100 and 40 days.

Larry Hagner [00:17:35]:
Right? Which you

Scott McCarthy [00:17:36]:
Do you even stop doing 75 hard? Like, every time I like I

Larry Hagner [00:17:38]:
don’t really think so. I think I’m always doing an element of it. It just depends on how strict I am with it. I just, I mean, I but anyway, like, you know, Ed Mylett states in his book, the way to build confidence is to fulfill the promises that you make to yourself and keep your own word, period. Right? So, like, leading yourself is, like, if I have down you know, if I if if it’s in my schedule and by the way, I sit in my office for about 30 minutes every Sunday, and I literally plan 3 missions that I’m going to accomplish within I it’s all about identifying when not only what am I going to do, but when am I gonna do it? And then it’s building that confidence and that character around leading myself to accomplish those missions. Because if I don’t keep my own word to myself, how in god’s name am I gonna lead somebody else to do it? So I just wanna share that with you. If we can’t lead ourselves, like, how how do we lead others? Is that is that even is that even effective?

Scott McCarthy [00:18:48]:
No. So if if with my with my, framework, leading yourself is actually in the middle. Why? Because it brings the other 2 together, the leading your teams and leading your organization. You have to be able to lead yourself. So in leading yourself, so what we refer to that is the character of leadership model. Right? Character based leadership model, where there’s a number of character traits, which allows for great leadership. So for you, you hit on a couple of them. Accountability, drive, courage, integrity.

Scott McCarthy [00:19:23]:
Right? And knowing you, because we’ve, you know, we’ve been connected for quite some time now. Humility is probably big on your list. Humanity is also big on your list and collaboration. Right? And these are all different types of character traits which you want in order to make those correct decisions. Right? And this it’s all coupled with one thing, and that is judgment, a k a decision making. So as you lead yourself, you’re constantly making decisions. Like, am I gonna go to gym, or am I gonna sit at the couch and do nothing? Am I going to pick up this book, or am I gonna pick up the Facebook reels? Right? Am I gonna set deliberate time to make connection with my wife, my my colleagues, my peers, my subordinates, what have you? Or am I going to close the door to my office and sit here and just, you know, crunch email or whatever. Right? So this is how you go about actually leading yourself, and you you use these character traits to bring it together in order to go after that, that best version yourself as possible.

Scott McCarthy [00:20:24]:
Because if you don’t lead yourself, if you can’t lead others, because you one of the core principles of leadership is that lead by example. So, you know, me in the military background, you know, I still train every day. Why? Because I can’t get up there and expect people I can’t hold people accountable because they failed their annual fitness test if I’m not willing to do it myself. Right? It’s just one of those things. It’s that drive. Right? So so that is that aspect of how do we go about leading ourselves, and it’s through the character based model. By looking at these different characteristics and actually going, alright, having a hard conversations with ourselves, like, am I too driven sometimes? Because that can that as much as that is positive, it can actually have a negative aspect to it. Because you can actually be running your people down to the ground.

Scott McCarthy [00:21:16]:
So as I hinted that to you earlier, you know, I I run, the nation’s largest supply depot. I work away from home. So Monday, I leave Monday mornings. I come home Thursday nights. I’m at work. You know, I stay up in Montreal for those days. You know, if I’m super driven, I could be crunching emails, crunching everything, 8 PM at night. Why? Because, well, what else am I gonna do? I’m I’m away from my home, away from my family.

Scott McCarthy [00:21:43]:
But guess what? My team isn’t. My team goes home at the end of the day. So if suddenly the emails are like their phones are going bing, bing, bing, bing. Right? Going and hitting off of why? Because my email is constantly going out, and I’m pushing deadlines on them. Why? Because I have the ability to work, but guess what? They don’t. So now I have to rein my drive in and go right now. I have to, you know, keep that in mind. So how do I do that? Oh, I go ahead and use this nice little Outlook feature, which says delay delivery of email until 8 AM the next morning.

Scott McCarthy [00:22:16]:
So it doesn’t matter what time I’m working at. I could be working at midnight. They’re not gonna get that email till 8 AM. So I’m respecting the boundaries that they have so that I’m not driving them too hard. And that’s a decision that I am making.

Larry Hagner [00:22:32]:
I like that. So do you think that that so let let’s go back to what psychological safety is. Right? And

Scott McCarthy [00:22:39]:
Mhmm.

Larry Hagner [00:22:40]:
The last definition I saw of psychological safety was, people don’t fear, to bring up ideas, questions, or viewpoints without punishment. So they they they they know, like, hey. If I go to this person and I say this thing or I ask this question, they could completely blast me. And that’s the opposite of psychological safety versus, like, I can bring anything to my boss or anything to my husband or anything to my dad Right. A viewpoint, and I know he’ll receive it. Right? And he’ll receive it well, not a reactionary state. But I I am keen to to know, like, do so you you you very clearly articulated what leadership is. Right? And you you took my definition and put it, like, well beyond on steroids, which I love, because you’re obviously the expert in this field.

Larry Hagner [00:23:29]:
But psychological safety in your perspective, is that the same?

Scott McCarthy [00:23:36]:
It’s a great question. So I go to preference everything. I should’ve even prefaced it earlier. So all the stuff that I’m talking about is not like, oh, just Scott McCarthy says. It’s actually backed up with guests’ research I’ve done. So for example, character based leadership model, that’s like an Ivy League school program that’s out there. And I’ve had people on the podcast. I’ve interviewed.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:56]:
I’ve researched it more afterwards. What I’m about to talk about, psychological safety, again, it’s backed up by a, gentleman named Tim Clark. He’s been on my show, and he’s written a book. It’s called the 4 Stages of Psychological Safety. So I’m going to take his model, and I’m going to overlay military experience to it from a pure leadership standpoint. Okay? So Tim talks about psychological safety, and by the way, your definition’s great. It works with this, this framework quite well. Tim talks about it being in 4 stages, though.

Scott McCarthy [00:24:28]:
Stage 1 is belong or safety, I e, I feel comfortable here. I belong here. This crowd gets me. You know? How many times have we heard that? Like, hey. What what do you like about your friends? I don’t know. They just they just get me. Right? So that’s stage 1. K? Stage 2 is learner safety, which is really what you were hit kinda hinting at a bit, where I can feel where I can I can make mistakes, and I’m not going to get severely reprimanded for it? But instead, it’s gonna be a learning environment for me to go ahead, make these mistakes, but learn from the mistakes.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:06]:
Okay. Cool. Stage 2. You sprinkled on stage 3 as well. And that’s contributor safety. We’re gonna bring up ideas. Okay. And go, hey, I have this an idea, you know? Hey, Larry, this would be a great podcast episode.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:19]:
Hey, dad, why don’t we go here for for supper? Or why don’t we do this activity? That’s contributor. Right? We’re we’re contributing. We’re bringing forth our ideas. Stage 4, which is the highest level, within Tim’s work is challenger safety, which is like this needs to change. This is messed up here. I I don’t like this. This doesn’t work. Okay? And that’s the highest stage where you get your team to the point where they’re actually challenging you as a leader, challenging your ideas.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:53]:
Okay? Which gets a lot of people really antsy. And the reason for that is because people have this thing where leadership gets tied to their ego, and they think that they need to be the one with all the answers. The reality is that this day and age, you actually if you have all the answers, you’re in the wrong dang room. What you need to be is the person with all the right questions. Ask the right questions to get your people who are the experts in their individual fields. They’ve come to you with the answers. So when we look at that stages of psychological safety, you know, k, belonger, learner, contributor, and then challenger, you can also look at it and go, you know, how do we achieve these things? Well, the first one’s easy. You achieve the longer through your values.

Scott McCarthy [00:26:45]:
Right? And you yeah. I know you talk about values all the time, because I’m still a listener to the show by the way. Right? After all these years. So you talk about values. Right? You know, these are our values. It’s more important, you know, it’s more important to actually act and adhere to your values, but simply just put do not something up on the wall. But you actually go ahead and you follow your values because that will be the first thing people will quit. They’ll leave.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:11]:
If you say you you value one thing, but your actions turn around and and basically say something completely otherwise, people are done. Like, I’m out of here. This is not lining up. Right? The other way to achieve, learner safety is something which you actually took from the military, and you’re applying in dead edge. And you teach it because I heard you talk about it, and I talk about it. That’s the AAR, the after action review. Right? And how do you do that? You you just look at what what happened, What went right? What went wrong? How do we fix it? So I can give you a quick little story, from my experience. So I used to be the operations officer of our schoolhouse.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:54]:
Something like 4,000 students a year, 300 courses. Crazy busy place. And as the opso, I was responsible for the coordination of all the stuff to do the training. Right? And I had to sell 8 folks. And 3 of these, folks, these, junior NCOs were in charge of very different things. But one of them made a mistake one time. And he accidentally re, budget you know, spent money where he wasn’t supposed to spend money up to, like I think it was, like, $40,000 or something like this. Grand scheme of things, it wasn’t a crap ton of money, but still it was enough.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:28]:
Like, your eyes went, oop. And like but when we looked at it, and we’re like, okay. Let’s first off, let’s fix the problem. Can we fix the problem? Yes. We can fix the problem. Great. Let’s fix the problem. Okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:40]:
Now let’s let’s let’s AR this thing, guys. And he was like, what? I’m like, no. We’re gonna sit down as a team, all 8 of us, and we’re gonna AR this. What happened? And I didn’t hold judgment against that master corporal, that junior NCO, because at the end of the day, he wasn’t trained to do what we’re expecting him to do. It wasn’t his background. No one followed up with him. Like, I was accountable just as much as he was accountable. Right? So we we learned as a team though from that.

Scott McCarthy [00:29:09]:
Why? Because the other 2 needed to know how to do his job because someday, he they might have to do it for him if he was sick, if he was away out of task, or he was on course himself, or what have you. So we go ahead and we approve, you know, we do the AAR process. And that enables that learner safety. It enables them to make these mistakes and learn from it and move forward. I’m gonna take a quick pause in case you get any reflections or you wanna interject, and we’ll talk about 3 and 4.

Larry Hagner [00:29:42]:
I just I I love this. Like, especially the belonger safety that, you know, you achieve this through values. I’ve seen this happen, like, with with, like, other, you know, big influencers. I’ve also seen this with, celebrities as of late. Like, you know, they’ll they’ll come out on the side of a political view of one of their people, but they’re like, wait a second. You’ve never actually stood for this in the past or you stood against it in the past. Right? Or, we’ve seen this even with politicians. You know, they’ll say one thing and then, you know, they’ll turn around and say something else.

Larry Hagner [00:30:25]:
And it’s like people, they don’t feel safe with that person because they know that perhaps their values can turn on a dime or they’ll change. Right?

Scott McCarthy [00:30:33]:
I’m gonna give you example of what we talked about earlier. Sure. Me not watching MMA anymore.

Larry Hagner [00:30:42]:
And what so tell me about that.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:45]:
Because I said, I found I feel that there’s no more respect in the sport. So like And if you look at the values of any martial art, what’s one of the top values?

Larry Hagner [00:30:56]:
I mean, it’s, top it’s humility and Right. Learning.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:01]:
Yeah. You know, humility, respect your opponent.

Larry Hagner [00:31:03]:
Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:05]:
I I you know, it’s not that I feel unsafe there. It’s just that the values to me don’t align anymore. So I’m like, I’m done. I’m like Agree.

Larry Hagner [00:31:12]:
Yeah. I think I Right? And just another takeaway too for stage 2. I’ve been taking notes the whole time you’re talking. I wrote down AAR after stage 2. And I thought about that for a second because you you briefly talked about, like, leaders and ego and that kind of thing. And I think one thing I’ve noticed being a leader myself is that, you know, no one you you don’t like anyone to call your kid ugly. Right? But, you know, if the data is pointing to, like, hey, this didn’t work out so well. Right? Or it didn’t work out in your favor.

Larry Hagner [00:31:49]:
Right? The thing that I I think helps leaders or at least it’s helped me sidestep ego. I’ve even done this with, like, getting on the scale. You know, it’s like after, like, after you eat bad or after you’ve been doing something for, you know, on, you know, trying to improve your health or whatever. But it’s like getting on a scale. Because that scale is kind of an after action review of, like, is this working? And if if it is, great. And if it’s not, let’s figure that out. But I think you have to be willing as a leader to be like, I’m going to look at this as data. I’m gonna take my ego out of it and just look at the data and just look at what happened and review it versus, like, this data means automatically this.

Larry Hagner [00:32:34]:
Like, I I think of even the scale. If I’m a £180 versus a 175, well, I suck. I’m gaining weight. I’m fat. I’m this something, which is absolute BS. But I can look at the scale and be like, 5 pounds heavier. What am I eating? What am I doing? Like, what’s the activity look like? You know, how is my body responding? Like, all those different things. Just take the ego out of it.

Larry Hagner [00:32:57]:
Am I am I on the right track there?

Scott McCarthy [00:32:59]:
100%. So I have to refer to this as the, ostrich syndrome, where you like the ostrich with the head in sand. You’re gonna you’re gonna what are you gonna do? You’re gonna pull your head out of the sand and actually look? Right? Because so many leaders out there will will avoid the actual truth or the actual data that’s in front of them. Right? And it goes back to what we talked about earlier now. You you have to make a decision, and that’s based on your character. You’re gonna show humility. Right? And and and here’s a true way. Okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:33:29]:
So you get data. Let’s say you’re at work and you get bad data. Someone brings you some really bad numbers, sales down, whatever. Right? And you’re gonna like, you can pull it. Now back to decision making. Right? Character based leadership. Are you going to how is your temperance? Which is another characteristic within the model. Are you poised? Are you calm? Are you gonna lose your crap? Because let me tell you, back to my earlier example, where was that opso? We had a commanding officer.

Scott McCarthy [00:34:02]:
And there was no psychological safety there because I didn’t know who I was walking into when I had information to let them know. I could be like, hey. Here’s some news, which I thought was bad. And they would be like, ah, it’s not a big deal. Like, hey. Heads up. Not a big deal, but, you know, we’re taking care of it, but just to let you know in case you so you don’t get side blindsided. Oh my god.

Scott McCarthy [00:34:27]:
And start throwing stuff metaphorically. It felt like it was gonna be real some days. Right? But the temperance was all over the place. So, again, psychological safety, like, knocked right down. Like, to the point where the longer safety was actually getting crippled because I was like, I can’t wait to get out of here. I started counting days because I knew my posting, you know, change in in units, was upcoming. I was like, start counting days. I’m, like, I’m done here with this person.

Scott McCarthy [00:34:53]:
I’m out. I want out of here. Right?

Larry Hagner [00:34:58]:
Can you tell me about some of the traits of a leader that does not display psychological safety? I know we have the 4 stages but talk to me about some of the breadcrumbs of just personality dynamics, words people use, tonality, body language, like anything like that that basically displays this leader probably isn’t the safest?

Scott McCarthy [00:35:24]:
Yep. So that’s a great question. That so my motto is lead, don’t boss. That boss. Right? So you can immediately when we we like, don’t get me wrong. There’s always, like, oh, be the boss and all, you know, these sayings out there, which is cool, or you’re such a boss. Like, you know, you’re trying to pump people up. But when you put that saying together, you immediately get the understanding of what we’re talking about.

Scott McCarthy [00:35:49]:
And that’s someone who doesn’t show humility. Alright? Someone who thinks they’re always right. Their ego is always through the roof. I’m the best. I’m here. I make all decisions. You don’t do it. I do it.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:03]:
It’s for me. Someone who says, we win because of me, because of my direction. Right? These are all types of little characteristics what you’re going to hear from someone. So someone who takes everything and owns it for themselves, all the good stuff, but then when there’s things that fail, you screwed up. You made the mistake. You didn’t do this. You, you, you. I’m pointing down at their team.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:28]:
Right? Some other traits, and I hinted at it again, their temperance all over the map. You know, sometimes it’s fine. Other times they’re yelling and screaming. They play favorites. We’ve seen this. I know lots of people have seen this. But favoritism will kill psychological safety within an organization very quickly, because it’s no longer based on merit. Right? But rather, oh, who do you know? Who’s close? Who’s going out and drinking with who with the boss at nighttime? What have you.

Scott McCarthy [00:37:01]:
Right? Someone who has no accountability. Right? If I’m late I I was late for a meeting. You know? I I had a meeting today that got messed up with one of my subordinates, and it was just like, you know, when we finally connect, I was like, hey, man. Sorry. My bad. He’s like, no. No. It’s all good.

Scott McCarthy [00:37:18]:
But, like, that just simple accountability is like I could easily went, where were you with the scheduled time? End of the day, was this a big deal? No. It wasn’t. It was just our our biweekly one to ones. But, you know, as someone who doesn’t establish that psychological safety, like, hold you know, look at holding them accountable when, really? Is it needed? No. Okay. So these are just some of the things which no doubt people are like, yeah. Yeah. I know.

Scott McCarthy [00:37:46]:
I know. I know exactly. They they’re probably thinking of someone in their head, as we say that. You’re kinda laughing there. So I think you probably you got someone in your mind too. Right?

Larry Hagner [00:37:56]:
I do. Do you wanna do you wanna dissect something for me? I’ll be your guinea pig.

Scott McCarthy [00:38:00]:
Shoot.

Larry Hagner [00:38:01]:
Okay. I I love being the guinea pig on this show because I’ve I honestly have no clue. I’m it’s kinda like throwing myself out there and be, like, I could be beaten alive or

Scott McCarthy [00:38:09]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Larry Hagner [00:38:10]:
Or or it could be, like, gold. 1 or 2. I don’t really care because as long as we all learn from my dumbass moves, that’s okay. So 2 I have 4 boys as we all know, like, right, 18 and almost 17, and then I have 11 and 80. Right? Yeah. But here’s the interesting thing. So I’m almost I’m gonna be 50 next year. And, you know, I’m a I’m a I’m a bit of a different dad at 50 than I was at, like, 40.

Larry Hagner [00:38:37]:
And what I mean by that is I’ve learned. Like, I’ve learned, like Yeah. Hey, these things move the needle, and these things are worth getting upset over. And these things, they just aren’t. You know? Like and I’ve I’ve had to learn that through so here’s here’s the feedback I get. And everything you’re talking about, man, I’m I’m running this through the lens of, like, my kids and as my team. Right? Or as a team. Right? And what I mean by that is the psychological safety, the accountability, the favoritism, like, all these different things.

Larry Hagner [00:39:05]:
So my 16 year old’s been really, really, and my 18 year old has been or 17 and 18 have been, hey, you would have never let me get away with such and such that Lawson just did or Colton just did. Who are my younger ones? And I’m like and instead of being like, you know, dismissing him, like, tell me about that. You know, and they’re like, if I would have done that, there you gave him 3 warnings. There would have been number 1, no warnings And here’s what have been the the the consequence. And, like, you just give them too many warnings, then you don’t do anything about it. And I’m like, And as much as, like, that was a kind of a hit to my ego, like, I’m like, let me take a look at that. Let me, like, really analyze that. I went back.

Larry Hagner [00:39:46]:
I talked to my wife about it. I was like, hey, I was like, we have 2 older boys. I mean, they I mean, we we feel like we hit the lottery with the 2 older ones. The 2 younger ones are great too, but the 2 older ones are just like, man, either we’ve done some really good things right or we just got really, really lucky. I don’t know which one. But my my younger ones or my older ones will tell you, like, there was no cake walk in our house. You guys were tough on us. Not abusive by any means, but you were tough.

Larry Hagner [00:40:12]:
Like, there was a standard. There was a line, and you guys did not deviate from it. And I I I I joke with my kids. I was like, yeah. But we were also, like, kinda assholes as parents. So I we because we didn’t know. We didn’t know. You know? And I was like, there was some stuff I don’t know if I really do again.

Larry Hagner [00:40:28]:
And and they’ll look at me and be like, yeah. But we kinda have our stuff together, dad. Like like, we we got good grades. You know, we got this. We got that. Like, and to be honest, like, a lot of it was because we couldn’t really we knew we couldn’t really mess up. And to be like, there was fear, but there was a but there was tons of love. So there was, like basically, I think what my son was saying is there was a good mixture of safety and love, but also, like, you don’t screw around.

Larry Hagner [00:40:55]:
Like, this is the this is the standard. So, like, my wife and I went away and we talked about this. And I was like, what do you think of this? Because I’m starting to, like, really I’m looking at how I’m operating as a dad. I’m running things through a filter of, like, yeah, it’s not that big of a deal. And I was like, you know what? It might be a big deal. I was like, so we kinda did, like, this after action review, and I was like, let’s look at some situations and how we used to handle how we handle it now. And, basically, what emerged to the surface is like, wow. We’ve gotten a lot more lenient than we probably should, and we probably need to ratchet down some of the standards again, like, and hold that to a higher level because here’s the here’s the interesting thing.

Larry Hagner [00:41:31]:
My older kids are looking at me like, dude, like, hold them to the same standard you held me. Right? And I think that’s a kid thing, but I think it’s also absolutely imperative to team camaraderie, accountability, leadership, and be like, yeah. The standard doesn’t change. Period. Right? And it’s it’s made my wife and I really buckle down and and, you know, kinda, like, dial in the intensity just a little bit. We don’t so we we’ve we’ve implemented those standards again of, like, yeah. We’re gonna ask you once, and after that, there’s a consequence period. We’re not asking you 3 times to do anything anymore.

Larry Hagner [00:42:06]:
So yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

Scott McCarthy [00:42:08]:
So, congratulations. Oh, thanks.

Larry Hagner [00:42:12]:
I don’t know what I did.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:15]:
So you said it was the oldest. So was it Ethan or Mason?

Larry Hagner [00:42:18]:
It was both. They both test.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:20]:
Okay. So both with Yeah. So both with both Ethan and Mason, you got stage 4 going. Okay. They challenged you Yeah. In a respectful manner. Not walking in and go, this is BS. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:30]:
They were

Larry Hagner [00:42:31]:
like yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:32]:
Hey. Like hey. Back in our day, that wouldn’t fly. Why are you letting them fly with them? Right? They’re actually challenging you as a parent right now. Because if they didn’t feel that psychological safety, they wouldn’t have brought it forward to you. And we didn’t really hit, you know, deeper into 3 and 4. So I’m gonna link this all together, and you’re gonna go you’re gonna have an moment. Right? So with 3, you you enable contribution by saying and you say it all the time, I’m here for you.

Scott McCarthy [00:43:04]:
Whether that’s at home or at work, like, hey. I’m here for you. Door’s always open. Feel free to come in. If you need, book a, you know, book a slot on my calendar anytime. It’s wide open. You know, I say these things to my team all the time. My boys, it’s like, hey.

Scott McCarthy [00:43:16]:
You know, you ever need to talk? Don’t worry. You know, you’re the most important thing. They walk over, they talk to me. If I got my phone hand, boom, down. Right? It’s saying, hey. I’m here for you. Stage 4, as we said, is enabling that that respectful dialogue like, what you think. Right? And then they came to you with their thoughts and they came without even prompting.

Scott McCarthy [00:43:39]:
That is actually like what you’re looking for. So in the military world, when we connect when we look at stage 4, this is how special forces operate. So I spent 5 years at high readiness. So I’m not soft. Never was soft. Won’t ever complain to be soft, as in s o f soft. But high readiness, I e ready to roll, 48 hours notice, often got less notice than that, and worked with the special forces guys, quite regularly. And and then talking with them and interviewing, you know, former soft guys on my podcast, this is how they operate.

Scott McCarthy [00:44:14]:
It’s that they’ll look at a mission, they’ll look at a plan, and they’ll go through the plan. Everybody on the team will go through the plan and challenge the plan. Why? Because they’re looking for the best plan possible. But it’s always in that respect for men. Like, I don’t like the extraction plan here. Like, this this, our med plan is a little bit messed up. Right? So when I spent, 3 years, at 48 hours at one point in one particular job, it had a large team of 38 total. I’m like, alright, guys.

Scott McCarthy [00:44:44]:
We’re planning this operation, and we’re, like, planning. And I have one of my guys who’s, like, kinda like my lead, and he walked in one day and goes, hey, boss. Like, can I ever run something by you? I’m like, absolutely. Walk in, shut the door. We’ve whiteboard the whole thing out. And he’s like, all right. Yeah, we’re good. I’m like, got it.

Scott McCarthy [00:45:00]:
He’s like, yeah, I got it. And we do that without judgment. So that enables that contributor safety. Right? So that enables the contributor safety. Another time I walked in with my plan, I dropped it on the desk in front of my team. I said, I’m walking away for 45 minutes. You guys destroy it. Wow.

Larry Hagner [00:45:19]:
What happened? Right. That And the

Scott McCarthy [00:45:21]:
reason for it

Larry Hagner [00:45:22]:
Can can you tell me what happened?

Scott McCarthy [00:45:23]:
Wanted the best outcome.

Larry Hagner [00:45:24]:
Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:45:25]:
Right? We’re we’re looking for the best outcome. Again, it’s checking the ego at the door.

Larry Hagner [00:45:29]:
Right. What happened?

Scott McCarthy [00:45:31]:
Right. Destroy it.

Larry Hagner [00:45:33]:
Well, yeah. So what happened? What’d they do to it?

Scott McCarthy [00:45:36]:
They I mean, they pointed with some flaws.

Larry Hagner [00:45:37]:
Okay. They didn’t, like, decimate it. They didn’t hit the nuclear bomb button. They but they did

Scott McCarthy [00:45:42]:
they did tell apart a little bit. That was the that was the but again, that was enabling that challenge for safety. Like, cause if I walked in and they go, it was perfect bossed. Who’s actually winning here? My God.

Larry Hagner [00:45:53]:
I love

Scott McCarthy [00:45:54]:
this dude. Me. Right? Like, no one no one’s winning in that scenario. So in your case, now it’s tied all back to your case, is the, you know, Mason Ethan came to you and say, hey, this is this ain’t working. And, this ain’t working. Like, you didn’t do this to us. You didn’t hold you hold us to a higher standard. Look how we are.

Scott McCarthy [00:46:17]:
Like, are you gonna get the same out of them? Like, good getting everyone’s different, of course, but still it’s like laying that that sense of psychological safety. So if you turn around and you said to him, you know what? Boys, thanks, but times are different. You know, shut up, move on. Guess what would happen? You think they’re gonna come to you next time when they got an idea?

Larry Hagner [00:46:39]:
If if I poo poo on it? Yeah. Yeah. No. It it would not be. Like, I think that it’s yeah. That’s which by the way, the story I’m telling myself Scott, when you put that plan in front of your team and said destroy this, perhaps the story I’m telling myself is maybe yes, you absolutely wanted feedback and you wanted your team to contribute and all that other stuff. But the amount of credibility that I think you probably earned of psychological safety in that moment where your team was like, wow, this is the kind of guy we answer to. This is pretty awesome.

Larry Hagner [00:47:14]:
And what it probably did was is propelled you to a whole new level of credibility the next time you’re in front of those people.

Scott McCarthy [00:47:23]:
Quite possibly. I can’t answer on their behalf, but I’m telling you, like,

Scott McCarthy [00:47:27]:
I don’t have it here. I kinda wish we

Scott McCarthy [00:47:29]:
have it. I have a painting. So when I left that job, I had a buddy I commissioned a friend of mine who was in the forces. He got out, and it’s, it’s a drawing. I I I’ll send you a copy of Larry because I got it digitally, and you’ll love it. The drawing has a C17 in the background. It’s getting loaded with a forklift, and there’s, like, a bunch of boxes on the ground, and one’s on the forklift being loaded. Each one of those boxes represent a mission that we undertook during our 2 years together, 2 or 3 years together.

Scott McCarthy [00:47:59]:
And each one had the label of the different missions and all this stuff. One of which was the extraction out of Kabul, the fall of Kabul, when the Taliban came back. We were in on that. A bunch of other things, we were in on. So just to give you an idea, and that’s the kind of stuff we were doing. So, but it was just like, hey. Like, we were in this together. And in the end, it was like, you know, it’s not about me.

Scott McCarthy [00:48:24]:
It’s not about you. It’s about troops on the ground, the people on the ground that we’re we’re supporting. Right? So back to that whole thing, like, you know, challenge it because end of the day, you know, it’s about it’s about the people on the ground, whether that is, you know, your kids, whether that’s your employees that are working the phones, working the doors, shareholders, what have you. It’s about the people on the ground because without them, you’re nothing.

Larry Hagner [00:48:55]:
I agree with that, man.

Scott McCarthy [00:48:56]:
Man, this is Nothing. So Yeah. Sorry. Just as high you know? So when we look at it from that standpoint, we, and we shut people down, then you start getting knocked down. They’re going to come to you less. Oh yeah. And then they’re suddenly going to stop being scared to take chances because they don’t know if they can make a mistake anymore. And if you stop taking chances in this day and age and stop trying new things, you become irrelevant.

Scott McCarthy [00:49:26]:
And guess what? People are gonna walk the door.

Larry Hagner [00:49:28]:
I agree.

Scott McCarthy [00:49:30]:
This is I’m out of here.

Larry Hagner [00:49:32]:
This is really good because I think here here’s the question that I pose to the audience. You’ve you’ve been led by 22 of these you’ve been led by each one of these people, meaning, like, the leader that that they’re they’re safe, the the environment that you’re talking about, everything we’ve been talking about for the past 47 minutes. Like, it’s it’s that environment versus the opposite, which is the negative experience. And what I’ll tell you is I mean, I don’t have to tell you this, but you get way more out of people when you’re leading them properly, like, through those four stages because I’ve worked like, I remember back in 2007, I was hired by this boss. And this guy, Scott, was the best. Like, still to this day, I can point to Jeff Southern when I worked for him at CareFusion as the best boss I ever had. And it was because of all those things were there. I was the I was the belonger.

Larry Hagner [00:50:30]:
Right? I was the contributor. I was the challenger. But the cool thing is is he, like, would lay out the welcome mat for those things. And and he would do it with, like he’d be like, yeah, man. Like, no filter. Like, let’s go. What do you got? Tell me. Right? And and it was welcomed.

Larry Hagner [00:50:44]:
Like, some of the stuff I’d be like, Jeff, I don’t wanna say this. He’d be like, man, say it. Let’s hear it, man. Let’s hear it. And I just say, he’s like, alright. Good. We got it out. Right? And then, like, just things like that.

Larry Hagner [00:50:53]:
And, like, I, me, and our entire team that he led, like, we kicked ass.

Scott McCarthy [00:51:00]:
And I we

Larry Hagner [00:51:00]:
all pointed to Jeff. We’re like, dude, you’re the best boss. And Jeff would point back at us. He’s like, I ain’t anything. You guys are this. And then we had then literally, I got promoted, and I answered to another boss. And we nicknamed it was 5 of us guys and we we were led by this vice president of sales and we called her the queen. And we were like her subjects.

Larry Hagner [00:51:21]:
And she would just beat the living snot out of us constantly. We could not do anything right. And when we did do something right, I am not kidding. Well, I taught him that. I told him to do that. And we’re just like, we wanted to kill this woman. Like, we’re just like, this is the worst working environment. And there was never anything safe you could go to.

Larry Hagner [00:51:44]:
Like, you wanna go and talk to her about, like, something that was ailing you or a challenge, she just beat the shit out of you. Like like, it was almost like it’s having the parent of, like, I’m not gonna tell my dad anything. So all I’m gonna do is get lectured even if it’s good. Right? So, yeah, it it really hits home, man.

Scott McCarthy [00:52:01]:
Well, you know, just to double down on what you said. Think about it. If in, you know, if we use this in the scenarios where what’s on the line, it ain’t profits, it ain’t money, it ain’t sales, It’s people’s lives. People’s lives are on the line, and this is how we’re operating, and this is how we’re talking. Like, if that’s not a wake up to say, hey, this is how you need to operate, because this is how the highest levels of people in those environments operate, then maybe you should, like, double check yourself and go back to that leading yourself. Get some humility into that character based model.

Larry Hagner [00:52:40]:
I agree, man. This has been so good. Where where can where can guys find you, connect with you, and and just learn more?

Scott McCarthy [00:52:49]:
Lead Don’t Boss is, is my website. You can check that out. I know. Shocker. Right? That’s us. Lead Don’t Boss forward slash subscribe for the podcast. You can, you know, 2 click subscribe button. Boom.

Scott McCarthy [00:53:02]:
You’re there. And feel free to reach out to me. And for the guys, if they’re, you know, this is something new, this whole model resonates with you, but you wanna learn more, there is a special gift for you, free free program now, which I’m just launching, start leading now. And it’s this whole model of understanding the different components domains, and then finally how to execute on those. And it’s gonna be a email course, very similar to your, marriage course, actually, Larry. So very similar kind of structure. Email it to you every day or a couple days. Take it, learn from it.

Scott McCarthy [00:53:37]:
And then at the end, what you’re going to get is a link to a test where you can go, okay. Where am I short? Where am I doing well? And you can get, like, hey, recommendations, your personalized recommendations from that test too. So if you go to lead don’t boss.comforward/start, you can sign up for that there.

Larry Hagner [00:53:53]:
You actually put your phone number on this website? Is this your phone number?

Scott McCarthy [00:53:58]:
Yeah, man.

Larry Hagner [00:53:59]:
Wow. That’s cool. I I haven’t seen many people do that. But, like, yeah. If you guys if you guys go to lead don’t boss, like, it it’s a tremendous, it’s it’s a tremendous resource for you, number 1. Like, Scott’s got all kinds of good stuff on here. His his podcast, his blog, his services, what he’s all about and all that stuff. But even his phone number, holy cow, dude.

Larry Hagner [00:54:18]:
That’s amazing. Yeah. We’ll put this in the show notes for you guys. I’ll tell you what, Scott. This was this was great just for me personally. I’m I’m just because I’m sitting here thinking like I’m like, what what does work? Like, some things I know work and some things I’m like, I have no idea how this even worked. Right? Even even in an after action review, like, I’ll point to things be like, I think it’s because of this. Maybe because of that.

Larry Hagner [00:54:43]:
I don’t really know. But you, like, I felt like my fingers were getting tired. I was typing so fast as you were talking because, like, I all four of those stages, I’m, like, just taking meticulous notes because, like, here’s the interesting thing as you talked about this. Like, yes, I lead a team for data edge, but I’m sitting here thinking, like, where are each one of my boys in this? That’s what I really thought about. And even, like, where’s my wife in this? Like, where’s she and I and I she’s definitely a challenger. She’ll be like, yeah. That’s not gonna work. I don’t think it’s gonna work.

Larry Hagner [00:55:13]:
Here’s how. But but my boys in particular, like and I can even see, like, in situations where this might even be situational where they’re like, I wanna be a contributor. Maybe not a challenger. Maybe I’m a learn you know what I mean? So it’s it’s really interesting because I think guys are so visual. And once we know, like, oh, it’s this this this or this, we can point to where that that person’s probably at.

Scott McCarthy [00:55:36]:
Hey. Can I take 2 more minutes to just quickly hit on, the balance, balance alignment? Because we didn’t touch on that at all, but I’m gonna give you a quick scenario which will make that super crystal clear why that’s important for guys out there, because we touched on psychological safety obviously a lot. We hinted, to character based leadership a bit. So just quick story, and you’ll understand the whole, balanced alignment or leading your organization. I was coaching the VP of sales of a company once, and when we talked to him, he was super stressed about his numbers. No surprise. Right? And I said, okay. So what happens when you get your numbers? Let’s say you hit the number.

Scott McCarthy [00:56:16]:
What happens when we convert that to action for your company? He’s like, well, the operations guys crash. I’m like, excuse me? He’s like, they actually don’t have enough staff to we don’t have enough staff to meet the demand of the sales. This is unbalanced. I’m like so then I coached him going back to his CEO, revising his numbers, re real giving staff, reallocate it, you know, planning, phase planning for as they did meet their numbers and how to get more operations staff. But the from the, you know, the balanced alignment, you know, the whole organization needs to be balanced across the board, and you need to be in alignment so that one input of an organization doesn’t crush another one. So that’s super quick overview of that that, how you execute on that.

Larry Hagner [00:57:05]:
Thanks thanks for clearing that up. That that’s really valuable. I didn’t even think about that, but, like, I I just got so excited about the 4 stages, you know, balancing all that. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:57:14]:
No. Well, like I said, each one could be a podcast episode in time. Right? So this is very super high level. Here’s a quick little story. Now you under you get the basis of it. Right?

Larry Hagner [00:57:22]:
That’s cool, man. I appreciate that. Gents, you won’t have to look far for Scott. Head on over to the data edge.comforward/friday185 for this show. Again, the the data edge.comforward/friday185 for this show.

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