Mastering Sales Leadership: From Newbie to Navigator | Scott McCarthy | Episode 296

Scott McCarthy [00:00:00]:
Are you a sales leader struggling to basically transition into that leadership role, Or are you a sales leader who is struggling to basically get your team to work together, or you’re just not sure how to build that team together, especially in an environment such as sales where it can be cutthroat, person against person, competition. Well, today, we’re gonna talk about how you can actually inverse that and bring the team together, vice, getting them to split apart. Are you ready for this? Alright. Let’s do it. Yes. Welcome and welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast. It is your chief leadership officer, Scott McCarthy, and thanks for tuning in today to a little bit of a different show today. Doing things differently.

Scott McCarthy [00:01:45]:
And that is I’m not the only person talking during this interview, but I’m not the host. I’m actually the interviewee. What you’re going to listen to today is actually a recording, which I did recently on sales TV live. I’m talking about sales leadership and what they coined as the special forces approach to sales leadership. Now if you’re thinking, oh, I’m not in a sales role, so this episode isn’t for me. Well, actually it is because the principles apply the same to all teams regardless if they’re a sales team, a marketing team, a research team, a human resources team, god, a sports team. The principles remain the same. And that’s what’s great about principles because they can be applied to anywhere.

Scott McCarthy [00:02:40]:
Anyway, nonetheless, so you get to hear me speak more so than the host today. So further ado, this is me talking about the special forces approach to sales leadership.

Rob Durant [00:03:09]:
Good morning. Good afternoon, and good day. Welcome to another edition of Sales TV live. Today, we’re talking about a special forces approach to sales leadership. I’m joined by Scott McCarthy. Scott is a senior Canadian army officer and chief leadership officer at Moving Forward Leadership. His leadership journey began early and saw him rise through the ranks of the Canadian army, commanding both small and large teams in complex environments. His practical insights shaped by his military experience provide valuable lessons for sales leaders seeking to enhance team performance and communication.

Rob Durant [00:03:54]:
Scott, welcome.

Scott McCarthy [00:03:56]:
Thanks, Rob. So happy to be here today. Excited for a chat.

Rob Durant [00:04:01]:
Likewise. Scott, let’s start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today?

Scott McCarthy [00:04:11]:
That’s a that that could be the whole call right there, but let’s get let’s, let’s do the Coles notes version. So I joined the army straight out of high school. Like, I literally missed high school graduation to sign sign up for the army, which is kind of funny. And I did that because I wanted to be different. Not many people from where I was from, I’m from the Far East Coast of of Canada originally, and, not many people were joining the military per se, especially going to the Royal Military College. The irony of that is I went to the one university and college where everyone is exactly the same. I mean, we’re in uniforms. Everyone has the exact routine, and here I was just trying to be different.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:53]:
So, flash forward to 2,009, and, I deployed to Kandahar, Afghanistan, and I spent 7 months directly embedded with the Afghan National Forces where I was helping train and mentor them. So 7 interesting months there. I came home and then the army said, you know what? You’re pretty good at this thing. So so we’re gonna send you to our your training center. So off I go to the logistics training center for 4 more years in training both NCOs and and junior officers in in the business per se. And that’s kinda where the whole leadership, like, it really struck. Like, I I like what I’m doing. This is interesting.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:31]:
And from there, I was like, hey. And then the further joke was I got bored one night and said, hey. Let’s start a podcast for fun. And and then fast forward something like 8 years now, and I have, moving forward leadership as a full ecosystem per se of coaching, mentoring, providing, insights through the podcast and such. So that’s the very quick Coles notes version on the background of me. There’s much more to it than that, though.

Rob Durant [00:06:00]:
Well, alright. Thank you for that. Let’s let’s jump right into it. What do you mean when you talk about a special forces approach to sales leadership?

Scott McCarthy [00:06:12]:
Yeah. So I guess the first thing to do, I’ll preference preference it with, I was never special forces, as you know. However, I spent 5 years total on what we refer to as high readiness. So 48 hours, notice the move, phone rings, in theory. 48 hours later, I’m on a plane headed somewhere, some, you know, someplace for indeterminate amount of time. That was great in theory. In practicality, my shortest notice to move call was 3 hours from phone from phone ringing to needing to be on the plane. With that time, though, in 5 years, I did get to work with special forces operators from the Canadian side.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:52]:
And then through us also through the podcast, I’ve interviewed quite a number of Canadian and American Special Forces members. And from there, I realized, you know, how did they build high performing teams? Because as everyone thinks about self special forces, you know, it’s high performance teams. Right? Risk is super high. High highest that you’ll ever you’ll ever find. As well as my 5 years at high readiness. We’re constantly in and out of small team dynamics. Showing up, being deployed to a small country somewhere to do something. Something.

Scott McCarthy [00:07:26]:
We get a team smashed together with all kinds of different specialists, and we have very little time to hash out those 4, you know, 4 4 stages of, team development, which is, you know, forming, forming, storming, norming, and performing, where that’s the cycle. And we have very little time. So I was like, well, how do special forces, you know, do this? On the on the other side of the coin, I had a great interview with with an with a gentleman named Tim Clark, and he talked about the 4 stages of psychological safety. And then as I kinda did my own analysis, I realized, like, I put the overlay to it. I’m like, this is how they do it. They build you build teams to the point where the team members all feel safe enough to challenge the leader. And with that so let let’s think about that, because that’s kinda inverse of what everyone thinks. Like, woah.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:24]:
Challenge to lead. Challenge to boss. Well, no. That’s actually what you want. So let’s talk about the 4 stages quickly, and I’ll and I’ll explain to you why you want to go this way. So stage 1 is blogger safety. Blogger safety feels means that, hey, I feel comfortable here with this team, with this organization. I’m not looking to quit.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:44]:
Generally easy to, achieve. As long as your core values are aligned with the individuals, you’re good. Stage 2 is learner safety. So learner safety is where I know that if I make a mistake, I’m not gonna get immediate reprimanded for it. Rather, you’re gonna let me know I made a mistake. You’re gonna help me fix that mistake so it’ll make it, you know, in the future. So in the sales environment, so if someone goes ahead and gets on a sales call, when your team members gets on sales call, they don’t land the sale. Instead of you going, oh, you’re making the you drop another 2 of those, you’re gonna get fired.

Scott McCarthy [00:09:21]:
A psychologically safe environment leader would go, hey. Let’s talk about this. Alright. Where where did you where did you make mistakes? Okay. You could’ve said this. You should’ve let them down that way. You talked too long here. You didn’t listen to them there, and coach them through that.

Scott McCarthy [00:09:36]:
So that’s stage 2. Right? Learner safety, helping them learn. Stage 3 is contributor safety. So now your team member not only, you know, is able to learn from their stakes, but rather as they go through the process per se, they go, wait now. I get this idea. What if, you know, if this part of the script, for example, we change these words here to sound a little bit different or give them an opportunity to speak there, what have you, and push that towards their team lead. And team lead goes, great. Thanks for thanks for your input.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:12]:
I’ll look into it. Now stage 4 is where special forces folks operate at, and that’s challenger safety. So challenger safety is where they go, hey, this is a mistake. This is wrong. And and you think about that in the military context, like, since when when did we hear about that? Like, the movies never show say that. Like like, the leader’s always there and he, like, knows everything and and is you know, let’s charge to the front. Here we go. This is the plan.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:40]:
But here we are. We’ll actually know. This is not the plan. This is not how it actually is done. So when I talk to the special forces folks, what they do is they yes. The team lead comes up the plan, but they go through that plan over and over and over again to the point where everyone that’s around that room, that’s in that team, is comfortable with the plan. Why? Well, we go back to what I talked about earlier. Right? They they operate at the highest risk level, I e, lives.

Scott McCarthy [00:11:11]:
So what is happening is is that each of the members is challenging the plan, looking for weak points in the plan, Looking for areas where there might be blind spots. Like, hey. We don’t know. What are we gonna do in the event of this? What are we gonna do in the event of that? This here looks pretty weak over here. Like, we haven’t thought about that whatsoever. You know? If we do this, but it’s not synced with that, the effect isn’t going to be what we’re looking for here. So if you think about that in a sales context, it’s like, hey. Like, we’re not giving our customer enough time to talk to us.

Scott McCarthy [00:11:50]:
We’re not giving our cut you know, we’re not selling, for example, the hole that our drill is making, Rather, we’re just talking about the drill. Like, we should be talking about the hole. Right? I’m sure you as great salespeople understand that reference all too well. That’s what I mean by challenger safety. Enabling your people to bring these ideas forward and challenge the status quo, challenge the plan. And one of the key things to do about that is that you, as a leader, you need to drop your ego. You need to check your ego at the door. Right? And often what happens in in the sales, the sales managers which I’ve I’ve coached in the past, is that a lot of them, you know, they get promoted because they’re the best at what they do.

Scott McCarthy [00:12:35]:
They’re the best seller. Right? Which will hap what what what goes on? Well, it inflates people’s ego. Whether that is, like, you know, done maliciously. Like, some people just simply think, oh, I’m the best. You know? Look at me. I’m the best. I did 8,000,000 in sales last year. I’m the best.

Scott McCarthy [00:12:51]:
You know, I got the all the award plaque plaques behind me. Look at this. Oh, okay. Great. Or it just does it indirectly and, like, okay. You know, I know what I’m doing, so they need to listen to me because this is how it gets done. Well, it’s different when you’re managing a team because they’re not you and you’re not them. So we need to check your Google store because you need to able people come forth with these ideas.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:14]:
And that’s what it is all about challenger safety and and how special operators go about it. K? Enabling that that the environment where people can go. This doesn’t work, but I think this could. Excellent. So I

Rob Durant [00:13:33]:
heard reference to safety a few times.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:37]:
Yep.

Rob Durant [00:13:38]:
What are the most effective ways to build cohesion and trust, safety among sales team members?

Scott McCarthy [00:13:48]:
Yeah. So that’s it. That that is a great question, and I kinda alluded to the first part just before I wrapped up there, and that is checking your ego at the tour. So you as the team lead, you’re gonna set the tone for your team. And if that is one of ego and arrogance, you’re gonna immediately crush all that safety that’s out there. Right? Now if you look at the 4 stages of of the psychological safety framework, they are in fact building steps towards each other. So if you look at belong or safety, again, you know, Corvit looking at it and from a values perspective, does your company’s values and your team’s values align with the person’s values? Yes? Okay. That’s good.

Scott McCarthy [00:14:30]:
Alright. Next, learner safety. You know, enabling them to learn from their mistakes. That’s a huge, like, huge step. That enables that trust. Right? Because if I’m scared to make a mistake, I’m also scared to make take a chance. And we all know high risk, high reward, but the risk doesn’t come out of doing things the way we’ve always done things. The risk comes out of challenging the status quo and taking a jump.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:06]:
But if I know that if I take that leap and make that risk and it doesn’t work out, I’m going to get slapped on the hand per se metaphorically, you know, worst case scenario, fired. And I’m like, I don’t wanna lose my job. I got family to take care of. I got kids to feed. I’m gonna sit here and not necessarily take that risk and not therefore, not necessarily learn from it. Right? So it’s the ego. It’s that enabling people to take the risks. Right? And and actually talking about it.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:37]:
It’s the ability to have the dialogue. You have to have the dialogue with your team. Okay? So developing dialogue with your team. And what one of the mistakes too many managers do when they show up is they immediately get to work mode. Right? How many calls you got today? Who are you meeting today? What’s going on? Take 30 minutes. Take 30 minutes and have a dialogue that has nothing to do with work. I show up my office every day, and I told you, before on call there that, I still you know, this whole leadership thing is a side hustle for me, and I still serve in the Canadian Army, and I’m currently leading the largest, supply depot in the country. My first 30 minutes in the office has nothing to do with work.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:23]:
Not listening to how many picks there are, how many orders there are, you know, personnel problems, blah blah blah. I’m walking around with a cup of coffee, much like this one here, walking around, and, finally, how’s your day last night? How was your night last night, Rob? How’s family doing? Kids soccer game go well? I’m asking these types of questions because I’m trying to get my peep to know my people at that deeper more intimate level. That’s where we build trust and cohesion. Just taking 30 minutes of your day, 8 hour day, 30 minutes of it. It’s 1 16th. Alright. It’s a fraction, not even the width of a saw blade if you’re in construction. K? And and you are getting to know your people at that deeper level.

Scott McCarthy [00:17:13]:
And that is how you could start building that trust and cohesion. And you well, how do you do that? You know, that’s between you and individuals. So you take this information. You know? Like, I go see Joe. I’m, like, talking with Joe now. Like, oh, yeah. You know? How was your weekend, Joe? And he explains, like, yeah. With kids’ soccer tournament, like, oh, you know Rob’s kids play soccer? Right? Like, no.

Scott McCarthy [00:17:35]:
We’re not. Yeah. Yeah. Like, totally. Like, at tournament, maybe you guys were playing against each other. You didn’t even realize it this weekend. Right? And then you’re enabling you’re breaking down these barriers and these walls, and you’re aiming in the connection between your team. Then once you start building that connection between your team members, what happens? When the once they’re connected at that more deeper level, the more intimate level on the personal level, they start branching and and are willing to go to bat for each other more so on the professional level.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:09]:
So suddenly, you you notice Joe is having a struggle on beating his numbers. Like, hey, Joe. Like, you know, no issue having a rough time beating your numbers there. You need some tricks. You need, you know, what were you failing at? And he’s like, oh, it’s the closing part. Like, okay. Here. What do you you know, talk to me about the next client.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:27]:
You know? What are they? Oh, computer sales. Do this to do that. Okay. This is why I find it works with these type of people. You know? You listen to them. You ask these few questions. Hey. Have you checked out, you know, Chris Voss’ book, Never Split the Difference? That’s a really good read, by the way, it’s a really good read on any front.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:45]:
And you kinda and then suddenly Rob, who’s a peer of Joe’s, is mentoring Joe without you, the team lead, needing to be involved. And then suddenly, you know, Joe is starting to meet his numbers. Rob’s meeting his numbers. So suddenly, the the everybody’s numbers are going up. Why? Because you enabled that connection deeper amongst your team members. And suddenly people are no longer scared, you know, of taking risks, bringing, you know, bringing ideas forward, challenging the status quo. They’re only going on a limb. You enabled.

Scott McCarthy [00:19:24]:
You’ve made that connection deeper, so now it’s not a competition, which we often see, but a collaboration. Let’s not compete against each other, but let’s compete against ourselves from last month. Oh, okay. That’s totally different. Do you ever feel alone, lost, or you’re just not good enough as a leader? You know what? You’re not alone. Many of us struggle with those feelings, especially when we’re new to leadership or facing new challenges in our roles. But you don’t have to go along. It’s where our leader growth mastermind comes in.

Scott McCarthy [00:20:13]:
Our community is specifically designed for leaders who are looking to grow, develop, and most importantly, thrive. Our weekly curated content, group coaching calls, and a safe and supportive community is where you can connect with other leaders who are facing similar challenges. Whether you’re dealing with imposter syndrome, feeling overwhelmed by the demands of leadership, or simply looking to connect with a community of like minded individuals, the Leader Growth Mastermind is here to support you. So why not join us? Take that first step becoming the leader you were meant to be. Visit lead don’t boss dot comforward/mastermind to learn more and sign up and join our community today. Together, we can grow, learn, and achieve our full potential as leaders. And again that is lead, don’t boss.comforward/mastermind. Can’t wait to see you there.

Scott McCarthy [00:21:16]:
And now back to the show.

Rob Durant [00:21:33]:
I love that. And I think the challenge for so many is that 30 minutes of making deeper connections amongst the team is not easily measured in terms of an ROI. And, therefore, if it cannot be measured, it must not have value. Right. And I think that’s just the wrong mindset about it. I I wanna pick up on something that you were referencing earlier. You mentioned, a lot of first time, sales leaders coming into the role. What are the common challenges in transitioning from a sales role to a sales leadership role, and how can they be overcome with the, special forces approach that you’re talking about?

Scott McCarthy [00:22:29]:
Yeah. No. That’s a that’s that’s a great thing. The first thing you need to do and, again, I’ve already talked about checking ego at the door, and I’m gonna even double down on that. Actually, I’m gonna back up. So when when I I’ll tell you the background story, and then it’ll all click in. So when I graduated from the Royal Military College, I was commissioned as a second consent to the Canadian Army, and we’re, like, handing in all of our college specific equipment that we no longer need it. And I remember there’s a senior NCO there.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:02]:
He never realized, neither did I at the time, but he changed my life by a few words. And he said, remember, folks, you don’t know squat. Use a different word instead of squat, but we’ll keep this PG. Right? He’s like, you don’t know squat. And what he was getting at the time was that, you know, just because we’re commissioned cycle of tennis, we’re really, like, we’re basically still brand new crews. We still hadn’t finished our our basic level training. We haven’t spent any time in the real units. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:35]:
Yeah. I took those words, and I take that approach to every position that I hold. We change jobs every 2 to 3 years. And as I said to you, I just recently switched jobs again to the command of supply depot. And I come with that mentality is I don’t know squat. I don’t know anything. Now am I dumb? No. Obviously not.

Scott McCarthy [00:24:00]:
Because I wouldn’t have gotten promoted, and I wouldn’t have been assigned to this position. But if you come to the new role with an appreciative lens, a lens of wanting to act learn. Because being a manager is not being a doer, and being a doer is not being a manager. Just because you can do one thing doesn’t mean you can immediately do the other thing. So you have to learn. You have to appreciate. You have to understand. Suddenly, things that were not important to you are.

Scott McCarthy [00:24:37]:
People’s lives didn’t matter to you when you were just a salesperson, but now they actually do matter to you as a as a manager because you need to know how to be able to work around, you know, Rob’s life, Joe’s personal life, things that are going on at home, you know, some kids sick in the hospital. You think their head space is going in the game? Well, probably not. But if you’re just the team member, well, you you just, like you’re on your calls. You’re just doing your thing. Like, oh, that sucks for Joe. I’m just doing my thing. But as a manager now, you need to understand, like, the dynamics this is going to have. And now you have to manage your expectations.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:13]:
Like, okay. You know, your your kids in the sick in the hospital wanna take care of you, Joe. You’ve been an outstanding team player. Like, your your numbers this month are gonna slash them down. Or, like, hey. And now you go back to the special forces ideology. Hey, guys. We had to take 20% off, Joe.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:31]:
Who’s willing to, you know, pick it up? I’ll pick it up. I’ll pick it up. Yeah. I’ll I’ll take, I’ll take 5. I could do it. Right? And that’s that whole team approach. But if you go with that whole ideology of, you don’t know squat, you have to learn. You have to relearn your whole job now because it is not the same, and you’re with that appreciative lens.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:56]:
Okay? And there’s a study studies that have shown, 90 days. So So when I showed up to my new job recently, 2 months ago, and I told him, I said, 90 days, folks. I’m gonna take 90 days to learn, to listen, to understand what’s going on. And they’re like, I’m like, I don’t wanna change. We’re not changing a thing for 90 days. Just keep doing what you’re doing. Like, well, how do you want this? I’m like, how did you do it before? Like, we did it that way. Do it again.

Scott McCarthy [00:26:30]:
Right? Keep doing it. 90 days. Keep going. And in that 90 day time frame, what you’re doing is you’re bring you’re you’re looking at everything through appreciative lens. Like, why is it this way? Why is it that way? Why do we things do things this way? If I was if I was egotistical and arrogant, I would have walked in and start smashing things down and changing things, and the org structure doesn’t make sense to me. We’re gonna do this, and that TPS report is garbage. We’re gonna throw that out and all these other things. Okay? But no.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:01]:
Because I don’t know why things are the way they are. I don’t know the history behind them. Right? I could be a part of the team and get promoted and rolled and not understand why things are the way they are. And for a great example, so I talked to you about spending 5 years in high readiness. Those are 3 different jobs. Right? So years 1 and 2 was in one job. Year 3 of that 5 year stint was in another job, and then I was promoted in year 4 or 5. I was slid across the hallway into a higher rank job.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:32]:
So I’m in the same organization. Literally one day, I’m in one position. The next day, I’m in a higher level position, and I still have to approach it with this framework despite knowing the organization inside out because I’m looking at it from a different angle now. Despite being my boss from years 1 and 2 now, I am now the you know, I am now my old boss, and I did not appreciate I couldn’t appreciate from his stance at that time why he saw things that we are, and now I see it. So even if you’re promoted into the head of the same team, take 90 days. I’m not gonna kill you. 90 days. Understand.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:17]:
Learn. Be appreciative. And then that will enable you to actually lead your team. And you build all that trust because you’re not there questioning them and smashing things down. Why? Because when change occurs, people get scared. Right? Regardless of how much people change people love, and I I love change. Love to do it all the time. But at the same time, each change, you know, there’s that insecurity to it.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:46]:
How is it going to be? Especially when a new when a new supervisor shows up, How’s it going to be with them? Well, you build that security, that sense of psychological safety, you enable that belongership, and you start building, but not immediately smashing things down, but taking your time. And to date, I’ve yet to truly make a change in my current organization to and change months into.

Rob Durant [00:29:16]:
Wow. Counterintuitive slow down to go faster.

Scott McCarthy [00:29:22]:
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. My weapons instructor told us that, and it still resonates, and I use it from a leadership standpoint all the time. Slow is smooth. You go. Smooth is fast.

Rob Durant [00:29:35]:
So many more questions, but, we’re coming up against it. Scott, this has been great. How can people learn more? Where can they get in touch with you?

Scott McCarthy [00:29:46]:
Yeah. That’s great. Thanks for the opportunity. So you can find me at lead don’t boss dotcom. That’s my website. There, you can find my podcast, which is called peak performance leadership. You can check out leaddon’t boss.comforward/subscribe for a quick link to subscribe to it. And then finally, I also host a, leadership mastermind community where people come together to talk about, you know, their struggles and get solutions between myself and another coach, military background, and that is what we call the leader growth mastermind.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:18]:
And you can check that out at, lead don’t boss.comforward/mastermind. So there’s 3 links for you, and or hit me up on LinkedIn or wherever you’re I’m at I’m pretty much everywhere.

Rob Durant [00:30:29]:
Fantastic. We now have a newsletter. Don’t miss an episode. Get show highlights, beyond the show insights, and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at salestv.liveforward/newsletter. This has been another edition of Sales TV live on behalf of the panelists and everyone here at Sales TV Live to our guest, Scott, to our audience. Thank you all for being an active part in today’s conversation, and we’ll see you

Scott McCarthy [00:31:12]:
next time. And that’s a wrap for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast. But you know what you could do to truly support the podcast and know that’s not leaving a rating and review? It’s simply helping a friend, and that is helping a friend by sharing this episode with them if you think this would resonate with them and help them elevate their performance level, whether that’s within themselves, their teams, or their organization. So do that. Help me, help a friend win win all around, and hey, you look like a great friend at the same time. So just hit that little share button on your app, and then feel free to fire this episode to anyone that you feel would benefit from it.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:15]:
Finally, there’s always more. There’s always more lessons around being the highest performing leader that you can possibly be, whether that’s for yourself, your team, or your organization. So why don’t you subscribe? Subscribe to the show via moving forward leadership dotcomforward/subscribe. And until next time, we eat, don’t boss, and thanks for coming out. Take care now.