Navigating Workplace Conflict with Ease | Genevieve Hawkins | Episode 329

Scott McCarthy [00:04:30]:
Jim Diovan, welcome to the show. So good to have you here.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:04:34]:
Thanks, Scott. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:38]:
So we’re talking about shrinking elephants, this massive mammal thing. Obviously, it’s not gonna be an episode of Honey, I Shrunk the Kids on the podcast today. But let’s let’s let’s dive in and say, okay. What actually are we talking about when we’re talking about shrinking elephants?

Genevieve Hawkins [00:04:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it could be, honey, I shrunk the elephants. It actually could be that because we’re talking about the proverbial elephants in the rooms. So, you know, everyone, knows that experiencing work class is where you go, there’s this thing and people don’t wanna talk about it. And, actually, that’s what leads to blocking organizations’ performance and actually ends up ultimately leading to conflict or can lead to conflict. So I wanted to write a book about how do you actually navigate that? How do you actually recognize that the elephant exists? And then how do you have a conversation with others around that elephant in order to shrink it and be able to actually then work better together and get on with work?

Scott McCarthy [00:05:36]:
I love it. I love I love the, like, directness of that type of ideology. I think if I if this was my book, it’d probably be, like, I would not be the ostrich with the head in the sand. Because that’s the that’s the metaphor I often use. Like, no. We need to pull our heads out of the sand here and actually look and go, okay. What’s going on?

Genevieve Hawkins [00:05:56]:
We need to have a conversation. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:59]:
I love the, you know, the whole regardless what metaphor we use, I love the ideology behind the message behind it, and that is let’s let’s look at this. This is a problem area. Let’s just have a conversation about it and be adults around it, which is interesting because so many people and to say, like, so many listeners that they’re messaging, like, workplace conflicts. I mean, workplace conflicts. It’s gotta be one number one or number two of the complaints that I get, from listeners, from followers is workplace conflicts, which actually goes with hand in hand with the other one, which is communication. Let’s talk about conflict. How does this even start to begin with? Like, are we all great people? We all love to get along, sing kimbai on, dance

Genevieve Hawkins [00:06:51]:
together. Well, we do. So so actually at our core, you’re right. Like, we’re as human beings, we’re hardwired to belong. We wanna belong. So that sense of sorry. I’m gonna pause for a moment. Have you got a problem bodyminds or not? No.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:07:05]:
I’m sorry. We’re good. We start to do that. Oh, it’s going so let’s start again. So you’re right. We are actually all fundamentally hardwired to belong. Like, we want to feel like we are in a tribe and go, this is great. This feels good.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:07:17]:
And if you think about it, because I talk about animal brain versus thinking brain and that animal brain that is hardwired for our survival recognizes that there’s safety in numbers. And so that sense of feeling like we’re belonging and singing and dancing, actually singing and dancing is a Fantastic. Here’s the challenge though. Each of us have these lenses that we wear, and we’re actually not aware of some of the lenses. In fact, most of us aren’t aware of many of the lenses that we wear. Now the first lens that actually can’t change in in many ways is the fact of our genetics in terms of how our brain processes information. So everyone is on like, there’s what is neurotypical? Who knows? We just actually are all quite different in how we just see information and process information. Our childhood then is our next lens.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:08:07]:
It has a massive impact in how we have learned to navigate the world to feel safe. And then all of the experiences that we’ve had over life, Scott, good or bad, keep placing lenses on top of us, which means that when we look at the world, we see it in a particular way and we believe, well, that’s that’s the way it is. Like, that’s how it is. That’s the reality of the world. But the way you see something and the way I see something can be quite different. And if we’re actually having a conversation about something and you’re sitting there going, oh, no, no, no, that’s not the case. This is the case. And it is so completely different to the way that I see things.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:08:48]:
It challenges my animal brain because my animal brain thinks I’m safe because I’m right. Like, I’ve worked out how the world operates and this is how the world operates and I feel okay. And when you disagree with that, the animal brain is like, hang on a minute, hang on a minute, and you get a bit of a kind of this surge of cortisol that goes, I’m feeling uncomfortable here because you’re seeing the world in a way that isn’t the way that I do. And it depends on what we then do with it. Right? Because if both of us have a really good relationship, we can go, hey, hang on a minute. It’s like we see the world differently, don’t we? Can we just have a chat about that? But if I’m feeling really insecure in my relationship with you, I don’t know you that well. I feel that sense of, I don’t know how well we connect with things. I’m more likely to dig back in to my space and go the way I view the world is right.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:09:41]:
I may not tell you anything about it. It might just sit as internal conflict or quiet conflict as I could talk about, but that’s kind of how the elephant comes to be in the first place is because we just see the world differently and our animal brains reacting to that discomfort of seeing the world differently. And if we’re not able to get curious fast enough, we dig in and go, I’m right. I’m right. You’re wrong. And here we go, elephant starts to grow.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:08]:
That’s super interesting. I really like the lenses, aspect of what you said there. What I’m what I’m picturing is you talk about this and especially, like, the internal or quiet conflict is my wife yelling at me to take the garbage out. And I’m sitting there, maybe doing something on the computer, maybe I’m relaxing, playing some PS five. Yes. By the way, I do play PS. Alright.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:10:29]:
Good, wide, relax.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:31]:
Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. Or or sometimes not so much if I’m racing.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:10:35]:
Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:36]:
But in my head, I’m just like, okay. Cool. I’ll get to you in five minutes. It’s like, yep. I got it. And then, like, five minutes later, she’s like, take the garbage out. Meanwhile, in my world, it’s like, it’s not a big deal. It’s just the garbage.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:45]:
But in her world, which is stinking, it’s overflowing, and he needs to get the heck out. I’m trying to she’s like, I’m probably, like, I’m trying to finish cleaning the kitchen. And that’s kinda where that, you know, that tension kinda rises.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:10:57]:
Comes, isn’t it? Yeah. And so and if you think about a couple of the lenses in there, so because one of the lenses can be and because because what happens is our lenses then tell us stories about stuff. Now I I I might be making up stories about your wife, so then, you know, don’t say that this is the word that she is actually thinking. But she can be sitting there going, I’m exhausted. So, like, we talk about one of the lenses being allostatic load. So it’s like, what’s going on for me right now? So it’s like, I’m really tired. I really wanna sit down and relax. And yet here I am cleaning the kitchen and he’s gone and playing his PS5.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:11:30]:
And so there’s this, can be this annoyance of going, well, if I kinda wanna stop, I just need these things done and why can’t he see that and do that? And then that gets that further lens, which is kind of starting going deeper into ourselves of like, he just doesn’t care. He doesn’t care about me. He doesn’t love me because he’s not making the effort to do what it is that I’m asking him to do right now. And of course, you’re oblivious in your world going, yeah, I’m going great with this game and I’ll be there soon, but this is really good. And of course, never in your oldest dreams thinking that she’d be thinking that you’re not really respecting her or loving her right now, but that goes on. And so that can then get worse and worse. Because, of course, when you finally come in going, yeah, I’m doing the bins, you’re going, girl, why is she, like, all shirty with me now? Because I’ve done the bins. Like, what’s the big deal? I’ve done the bins.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:12:17]:
And then, of course, you’re then going, god, you know, what what is this? This reaction is crazy. And, oh my god, it gets further on it goes.

Scott McCarthy [00:12:24]:
That’s, that’s I love this. So I like to clarify one thing. If I’m if I’m not helping cleaning up, it’s because I cooked. Yeah. That’s that that is one of our rules in her Carpthi household. Just FYI.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:12:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Scott McCarthy [00:12:40]:
Right? But I I but you said something there. You labeled the lens, and I missed the name of it, but you made a label to it. That means so to me, that says there’s other labels or types of lenses out there. So what kinds are there for the leader to understand? Like, okay. This is potentially what they’re working through.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:12:59]:
This Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:00]:
Problem, this elephant that we have right now is how we’re looking at it.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:13:04]:
So the the lens that I was talking about was called allostatic load. So what that allostatic load is this final kind of lens, if you like, that really can distort things because it’s saying, what is going on for you right now? How many balls are you juggling in your life? And therefore, how much bandwidth have you got for things not going the way that you want them to go? And so when we are extra tired because we’ve got that many things that we’re trying to juggle or we’re feeling that sense of tension and stress because like I’ve got to get through these things, I’ve got to get through these things. We do have less tolerance of things going wrong, so something can go wrong and our reaction to it is far is distorted from what you’d normally expect if you were feeling fairly calm, cool, and collected on the day. So that’s kind of one of those final lenses that are there. And, you know, there can be other ones within there that again are about experiences, and this is part of the challenge as a leader because because we’re not aware always of the lenses that we wear. It’s actually then not necessarily easy to try and recognize the lenses that you wear except in being curious when the way that you react to something is different to what we would have thought you’d be reacting to something. And so, you know, if someone has has had a bad experience with a manager that bullied them in the past, and there were particular behaviors that ended up, and often people will talk about if they’ve had that experience of being bullied significantly, and particularly if it wasn’t really properly resolved in that workplace and they just left, is their confidence levels are lower because of how they’ve had that experience. And so they come into your workplace, you’re not aware of that history with them, but they’ve got this lens that says they’re super sensitive to this question of, do they like me? Are they gonna treat me okay? Is this all right? You know, are they gonna behave properly? And you can do something small that is your allostatic load at the time that just says you’re tired.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:15:16]:
And so, you know, you were sending off an email back to them and you just were a bit, not wrong, but just direct and task orientated and said, can you just get this done? And no kind of warmth in the email. And then they get that email and go, god, he doesn’t he doesn’t like me. Like, you know, and you’re oblivious to it, but because of that sort of lens there. And and there are other lenses that come in because of our cultural backgrounds or upbringing, what our experiences there have been and what we’ve been exposed to in life. So one of the examples I would talk about for myself is that I, so I have a transgender son And that so the whole area of understanding what being transgender is is is one that’s rife with all sorts of confusion and and discomfort from people around this area. But I would have said I had a lens associated with when someone used the word transgender before I realized my son was trans that had me going, well, I think I’m a very inclusive and open person, but had no idea about the lived experience of people who were trans because actually I had very my experience was just what I saw in the media and that was about it. And so then now that I have had that life experience or continue to have this life experience with my son, that’s a different lens that I now wear. Does that make I’ve gone gone into all sorts of different lenses, but I’m

Scott McCarthy [00:16:42]:
soaking it all in. So I really appreciated the beginning there you’re talking about, especially of the the manager where we’re not a % sure what you’re gonna get is what I heard. Right? Right? Because I have one. In fact, that person is the inspiration behind our tagline of lead don’t boss. Mhmm. Because, I didn’t directly report to this person. So they were, like, two levels above me in the chain, but I but I had like, I I would work for, work for them, obviously, but I had to report to them regularly on things. Right? So, like, I there was times when I could just go, you know, bypass my boss and go directly to the boss.

Scott McCarthy [00:17:25]:
Right? Anyway, there’ll be times when I’d be, like, walking in and be, like, not a big deal or sorry. You know, oh my god. Red alert. We’re working on it, but I need, like, you might need to step in here. You’re like, the ship’s about to sink, and this person be like, ah, it’s not a big deal. What are you talking about? I’m like and I go see my boss. I’m like, I just told the boss this, and he’s like, oh my god. I’m like, yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:17:49]:
And he was and he was gonna be like, so what was her reaction? Like, it’s not a big deal. He’s like, no. This is like, Scott, you need to sort this out. I’m like, I know, but I’m letting you know I need help. Right? I’d have that or I’d be like, walk in, like, not a big deal. Just just in case someone messages you or calls you and ask, like, it’s gonna be sorted. And I swear to god, things were flying up my head. Like, it was like, you know, you know, and I was just like, oh my god.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:16]:
Like, I I don’t know who I’m getting here. I I I don’t know. Yeah. And it’s just like walking on eggshells every time I would go to her office because of, like, you know, which version am I getting? Because it’s, like, I don’t know anymore.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:18:31]:
And then so that’s a great description in terms of walking on eggshells because then that’s this lens that you’re wearing that’s specific to this workplace that says, I don’t know what I’m gonna get. And so you’ve already got cortisol running through your body going, what is it? What is it? What is it? The tension’s gonna be there and how how am I gonna respond? And of course, what that means is depending on who you get in that response, you’re not then in your best space to be really connected and curious about what’s going on because you’d got that tension in you.

Scott McCarthy [00:19:10]:
So, again, this was an army position, and we all know every military is very similar in that you move often. And I knew this was my last year at this job within this organization, face even. I knew I was moving the next summer. And, like, at one point, it was, like, counting days. I’m, like, I’m done. I’m done. I’ve given everything I can give here. Nothing’s moving forward anymore because this person, this one individual has just tanked us, and I’m just, like, I’m tapping out.

Scott McCarthy [00:19:35]:
I’m I’m out. Like, I’m gonna do the better move. I’m not gonna let anything sink. I’m not going to, you know, hinder anybody else, but be damned if I’m gonna go out of my way to help her look good. Right? It’s basically it.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:19:49]:
Yeah. And and in fact, in that too, what what you’ve got from a, so your value gets locked in then. Like, you’re locking your value in. And so then then what’s happening is that the organization is locked in terms of value because actually and this is what happens across so many organizations that they people do tap out that they go, seriously, like, it’s not worth my health. I’m not interested in in this, and I’ll I’ll do what I need to do, but that’s about it. And that’s what actually means that organizations don’t meet their full potential and individuals don’t meet their full potential. And we need and you go, this is what we need to get better at.

Scott McCarthy [00:20:28]:
Yeah. So let’s let’s move to the next question, which is completely tied to this. We’re gonna not make it the Scott McCarthy show and talk about my past, but we’re gonna actually tie it into your work and that okay. So let’s run this scenario by you. The leader listening is sitting there going, okay. I don’t think I’m a tyrant. So I got some new people or a new person working for me, and they’re really timid. Evie, they’ve had this experience previous.

Scott McCarthy [00:20:55]:
Maybe it was with a previous supervisor. Maybe it’s with the last company they worked with, last department. What have you. Right? Doesn’t matter. So how can they be proactive and try to, you know, kinda release that tension in a in a, you know, positive way so that the the person, the new member can actually feel, like, safe and, like, okay. This is not the last place. Right? Like, this is someone new Yeah. It wasn’t the way they were before.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:21:24]:
Yeah. Love love that question. I’d go, here’s a few kind of different steps with it. So I’ll often talk about so we need to understand some of the basics of the neuroscience of the brain and how it operates. So we talked, you know, a little bit before about the cortisol so that the animal brain’s kind of going, do I fit in, do I fit in when I’m not too sure I’m getting these or, and when I definitely feel I don’t, I’ll get these spikes of cortisol and we want them to settle down. And there’s two really great neurochemicals that that are fantastic to settle down the cortisol in order to then get to curiosity, which is where we want people to get to. And they are oxytocin and serotonin. So oxytocin is released when it’s like, I feel like I’m part of this tribe.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:22:02]:
I feel like I belong. And serotonin is released when you go, I feel like I have a valuable part to play in this tribe. And so what I say to leaders when you’re starting off with someone, and in fact, I’d say this regardless of whether they’re timid or not, and then we’ll get to some of the specifics of timid. Because the first thing is I say, here’s a practical thing. Go find out what you have in common with that person that has nothing to do with work. So this is not about big tribe. This is about tribe between you and me. And so it is being able to go, let me understand some of what you love doing outside of work.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:22:40]:
Or sometimes that can be intimidating in the context of when you’re the manager asking that and a person’s going, I don’t know what I wanna say here. And so I’ll say to people, if you’re picking up that someone perhaps is a little bit timid, and in fact, if I’m new into a leadership role, I go day one, hi team, let’s talk about this idea of finding out what we all have in common with each other. Here’s the thing I’m gonna put up, and I put up a slide and I have pictures of various different things. So like I love, I love cats. I love Marvel and Star Wars. I love musical theater. I love cooking. Like I try and go, one of my handful of these sort of different things that I go, this is what I love, that if someone wanted like, someone’s asked me about musical theater, I go, oh, go for it.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:23:20]:
Come on. Let’s let’s have a conversation. So I put us some of those things up and say, here’s some of the stuff that I love doing. I’d love to find out, do I have that in common with any of you? Are these the things that any of this that you love? And it kinda can start the conversation because if someone then says, well, you know, the person says, oh, I don’t really do any of those things. You can also tell me, curious to understand, what what do you do on the weekends and and, you know, what is it that you find renews your energy and try and work out what is it that I have in common with you. And if you’re a manager with lots of things on and go get a diary and you write it down so that you remember what it is that you have in common with that person and keep connecting into that because that generates oxytocin in them. And then the second thing is being, if you’re crystal clear about what is it that you want that person to do work wise, to keep giving them good feedback about what they’re doing well. And so what you’re wanting to do with that is then going, I can see, so I’ve connected to you.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:24:19]:
I understand your strengths. I’m really playing to your strengths. I really want to put you in a place where you’re doing well, and I wanna give you some great feedback about it. And it’s not just, hey. Great job. Well done. But being able to go, you know, I loved how that report that you wrote because it made it so much easier for me to understand it because you had it so clear. Three key arguments for each of those three key arguments, you had three arguments underneath to support with evidence.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:24:43]:
That was just awesome. Gives it so much more depth to the person going, right. Okay. I’ve got to keep doing that because that’s that’s the good thing. So I can settle you into those things. Your animal brain will be starting to go, okay. I think Genevieve might be okay. Like, she seems human, and we feel like we’ve got a bit of connection, which can allow then a conversation if I feel that you’re a bit timid to be able to then go.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:25:09]:
And let’s just say it’s, something went wrong. You know, something went wrong and that person didn’t come to talk to you about it, or they came in, but they were visibly shaking about having to tell you that something was wrong. To be able to then actually pause for a moment and go, hey, Scott. So let’s say you didn’t tell me. You didn’t tell me something and something then actually went haywire. The worst thing you can do is come in and go, Scott, why on earth didn’t you tell me what was going on there? Because that’s my anger and frustration coming out in my conversation with you. What’s better is to be able to go come in calmly and go, hey, Scott, we’ve got obviously this situation that’s occurred here. And and I understand that you were perhaps aware of some of the things beforehand, but you haven’t had, you know, didn’t come and tell me about it.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:26:02]:
And the story that I have in my head is that you didn’t feel comfortable in being able to acknowledge what was happening. And that makes me feel worried that that perhaps we haven’t got I haven’t made you feel safe enough, that you’re not feeling safe enough in the connection with me. And I really don’t want that. So can you can can you help me understand, Scott? Can you help me understand what’s happening for you?

Scott McCarthy [00:26:24]:
Love it. Absolutely. What’s happening for me right now is I’m absolutely loving everything that you’re talking about and especially the bit about finding commonality. You know what I mean? And I’m going to, probably bike drop’s not the right term. Missing the term right now. Maybe surprise you because we have something in common and you don’t even you didn’t realize it yet.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:26:46]:
Oh, I love that. I love that. Are you gonna tell

Scott McCarthy [00:26:48]:
me now

Genevieve Hawkins [00:26:49]:
what we have in common?

Scott McCarthy [00:26:50]:
Oh, yeah. I’m leading into it. Like okay. And it’s what I was hearing you is what I was hearing you talk about, and what I was hearing was psychological safety and we both use Tim Clark’s framework for psychological safety in our models.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:27:05]:
Love that. Love

Scott McCarthy [00:27:07]:
that. So I I use Tim’s framework for building so I talk about three domains of leadership. That’s kind of the basis of my framework. So leading yourself and we achieve that through a character based leadership, leading your team, and leading your organization. The other two domains, so for leading your organization, I focus in on a, balanced alignment approach. So, you know, put things in must equate two things out and everything must balance to achieve that efficiently and effectively. And then, obviously, I skipped leading your team because we achieved leading your team, peak performing teams through psychological safety. And that’s where I use Tim’s Tim’s work.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:52]:
And I’ve noted I heard it, and I’m like, okay. I gotta you know, and I was like, oh, I saw psychological safety in your book. And as you were talking, I skimmed, and I was like, boom. There it was Tim.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:28:01]:
And he is. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:02]:
And he was on and he’s been on the podcast before episode one twenty eight. He’s actually the most referenced guest I’ve ever had. So

Genevieve Hawkins [00:28:12]:
I almost feel like, you know, we need to have a three way conversation here. We need to do a three way podcast, Scott. Right? We really need to get him to do that. That’d be amazing.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:20]:
I’ll check-in with Tim.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:28:21]:
I love it. And so I’d love to hear

Scott McCarthy [00:28:23]:
from your perspective now about this and how psychological safety can help, you know, minimize workplace conflicts.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:28:32]:
Yeah. Look. It is it is so, so important. And and in fact, funny, I was saying to you, I’m already starting to frame up the third book. Actually, in the third book, I really wanna pull apart psychological safety a whole lot more. And because I so your model is very similar. Basically, it’s a kind of similar concept to me when I talk about leadership and saying in leadership, you’re juggling three ball self team task. And it’s that idea of saying you’ve got a you’ve got a a job to do.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:28:59]:
You’ve got this this, thing that you need to deliver, and so you need to make sure that that gets delivered. You can’t do that without delivering through teams. So how do you get that team connected? And then actually, if you’re gonna be a good leader, you need to keep connecting in with yourself and working out where you’re at. And what I’ve come to realize in the context of psychological safety, so we go back to, I mean, you’d think most people perhaps have heard it by now, but for those that not, that sort of Amy Edmondson short definition of it is saying, oh, people can actually say things that they need to say without fear of consequence. And of course, Clark goes more deeply into that. Well, actually there’s layers of how you go. Do I feel like I can learn? Am I curious? Am I feeling connected with others? All of these different layers before you finally get to this ultimate thing of saying, yes, I can actually raise issues. And when you, like you mentioned before around, I’m walking on eggshells, therefore I’m not giving my best.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:29:53]:
I’m just kind of doing the bare minimum. When we don’t feel psychologically safe, then we’re going, I feel the conflict internally. So I am sitting there going, I see the world differently to you, and I can feel that, like, when you get that surge of cortisol and tension or you feel the emotions bubble up, it’s going there’s conflict in you because your version of the world is different to what other people are talking about, but you’re not feeling like you can say it because you haven’t got the skills to say it or you’re fearful if you say it blows up career wise or whatever it might be, and you try and put it in a box and just tamp it all down and padlock it and go, I’ll be okay and I’ll keep going. And actually, ultimately, that’s really detrimental to your health. So it’s detrimental to your health long term. People burn out because they’re constantly trying to go, I’m trying to do these things, but I’m constantly dealing with, like, we talk about this cortisol dopamine cycle that we just go, I’m fearful about stuff. I’ve got to achieve something. I achieve it.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:30:55]:
I get a dopamine hit. I feel great, but then that’s gone and I need to worry it again about the next thing and I run and run and run. And so we exhaust ourselves, but we also don’t bring our best selves to work. So when, as a leader, you’re going, you want the organisation to go really well and you want the really great culture, then you go, you’ve got to create this safety. But here’s the thing, and this is the bit that I really want to expand upon more. I’m going to be writing a few blogs and things on it soon, or in fact, I’ve got drafts of it going, right. I’m gonna get this out. He’s really coming back to saying, in order for you to create psychological safety for others in your team, you have to feel safe within yourself.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:31]:
Oh, that’s a big

Genevieve Hawkins [00:31:33]:
drop moment there. Yep. Yep. And that’s the bit that we actually really need to talk about because you can learn academically. These are the things that I need to do as a leader, and I’m told I need to do x y zed in order to be there for others. But if you’re not tapped into where you’re at, and if you’re not feeling safe within yourself, and can I just say to listeners who go, oh, rubbish, of course I feel safe, I’m fine? I’d go, that’s actually a signal that underneath you’re not really you’re not really feeling safe because that’s a defensive reaction. And that defensive reaction says you’re not completely tuned into who you are and where you’re coming from and making sure that you’re present within yourself to create that for others. And I say that from a vulnerability point of view of recognising for myself that despite being so passionate about this area, I couldn’t recognize different points in time in different big roles that I’ve had where I go, you know what? I have not shown up in the best way that I could have in order to create that better environment for others because I wasn’t feeling safe within myself.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:46]:
Mhmm. Wow. That that was a mic drop moment right there. Let me tell you. And you mentioned, like, you know, what I felt, like, at the end there, you’re talking about bigger moments, like, longer periods of time. But I think we could even go, like, break that down to, like, even a day. Like, wake up, you know, and I walk into work and just, like, you know, got my coffee order wrong. The cat threw up in the middle of the night.

Scott McCarthy [00:33:11]:
Kid was screaming, you know, fight with the spouse leaving. Traffic, traffic, more traffic. Like, they show up, and, you know, first thing someone say, hey. What are you boss? I’m not your boss. You know, you start right? And you’re on edge. Right? And then it’s like, you know what? You know, it’s like, you know, it’s it’s that where that mindfulness and I’m talking about mindfulness a lot on the show. Maybe I need to talk about it more. But just that self awareness that wait now, like, am I triggered today? You know? Am I and and what am I going to do about it?

Genevieve Hawkins [00:33:44]:
Exactly. Exactly. So that it’s it’s it’s the self awareness. It’s not kicking like, it’s not sitting there going, oh, we’re all gonna be kumbaya all the time and that we’re not gonna be because we’re all human and we all have cortisol in our bodies. We’ve all got the same chemicals that are there. We’ve all got animal brains. We’ve all got lenses of which there are blind spots for us because we don’t recognize them. But what we can go and pay attention to is some of the behaviors that indicate that actually we’re not in as good a space as we could be.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:34:17]:
And so the getting annoyed with others in traffic, great example of, you know, going when you’re going, you know, they’re just gonna cut me off when I’m feeling frustrated, or I’m running late and I’m and I’ve got the, god, I’m running late. What are people gonna think about this? Because I’m not quite got to the meeting and how do I manage that or whatever. So the just recognizing said I was up in the middle of the night because the cat threw up, and then I had an argument with my spouse before I went to work, whatever it might be, is to just be able to go, hey. Hello. Hey, buddy. Hey, brain. You’re perhaps not in the best space at the moment. What’s your strategy? What’s in your toolbox that you’re going to actually pull out and go, I need this or this or this in order to bring myself into a better space? And we

Scott McCarthy [00:35:02]:
need to

Genevieve Hawkins [00:35:02]:
keep doing that. We’re human. We need to keep doing that.

Scott McCarthy [00:35:05]:
Right. And and the last bit I’m gonna add on with this, you know, topic that we’re talking about here is, like, okay. So let’s have you know, you you go through all this crap and you’re in a crappy day and you’re just in this bad mood. You don’t realize it. Like, you don’t get that self awareness though. Maybe later or someone calls you out even later. And you’re like, you know what? Suck it up. Kill your ego, and maybe go back and apologize.

Scott McCarthy [00:35:30]:
And you’re like, hey, you don’t want it wasn’t about you, it’s about me. This is a totally amazing my bad. My bad. Like, I don’t like, I I I do it all the time. Maybe probably more than what I should, actually, because I’m just like, I don’t I don’t need people to feel like crap. Like, our jobs are hard enough as it is as a Canadian army and the Canadian army. Life is hard enough as it is. Like, the demands of today is tough enough.

Scott McCarthy [00:35:58]:
I don’t think for a second anyone wakes up in morning like, how am I going to purposely screw up and piss off Scott today? Yeah. I don’t think that is actually what someone wakes up. It is like Every now and again, you

Genevieve Hawkins [00:36:12]:
might find a sociopath that does wanna do that, but yes.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:15]:
They’re very few and far between. Right? So, like, suck up the ego and go on a, you know, say, hey. My bad. I’m I’m sorry. Like, I apologize. And mean it because back to this conversation, then you’re on a still that psychological safe, like, oh, okay. He actually does care or she does care. And alright.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:35]:
It wasn’t about me. It wasn’t because I had the wrong cover on the TPS report after all. By the way, I love office space.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:36:44]:
So you’re right. You’re absolutely right. That ability to so if you can acknowledge it yourself, like you realize later you go, God, I was not fair on that person because they may not have had the right cover or something. But in the scheme of things, that’s not really big and that’s not the sort of, you should be able to sweat the little things and not worry about them, But everything else that was there was a problem. What you don’t wanna do is come back and go, yes, Scott. Look. I’m I’m sorry. It’s not you.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:37:12]:
It’s me. I was a bit short because I’m really tired. But can you but also, you you do sue. You still do need to get the right cover on things. That but that but says I’m kind of trying to justify a bit of my reaction. Whereas what we need to understand, and this is human beings as a whole, but particularly as leaders because it’s more amplified in that space, is that one of the important things we need to be able to do is regulate our emotions. And regulate them isn’t shut them down in a box and be a robot and go, I’m fine and everything’s fine and not show emotion, but being able to get into a calmer space. And when we’re not in a calm, compassionate and curious space with others and we haven’t behaved like, behave well, to be able to come back and go, I’m really sorry to your point saying, I’m really sorry that I reacted to you in that way because I recognize that’s not what you need.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:38:06]:
That doesn’t help to create a good learning environment for you, and it’s actually not who I want to be. I just I was having a tough moment at that point because there’s a few things going on for me, and whilst I don’t really wanna talk about them with you, I just wanna say sorry because I didn’t mean to have, I didn’t mean to do that, is extraordinarily powerful. Likewise, creating an environment where, like, you feel like you can come to me and go, generally, can I just talk about the meeting earlier today? Because when I was presenting x, you in your response, you cut me off. And, again, this is about not saying you were angry because you don’t wanna actually assume what emotion I was feeling. But for you to go, what was the behavior that you saw in me? So you’re going you you interrupted me halfway through talking, and you raised your voice in giving me directions on what to do when I showed you that I hadn’t done something right. And the story that came into my head with it is that you don’t value me, and I’ve just been feeling shit about it. And I’m sure that you didn’t mean to feel me feel like that. And I because I’m curious to go, can you help me understand what is going on for you? Now the leader that has enough insight when you’ve been vulnerable enough to go, I just actually wanna give you that feedback with a help me understand because it’s not a you weren’t good to me and I feel shit.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:39:24]:
It’s you did this, I felt this. I really wanna understand your perspective on the elephant. Like, I wanna understand where you’re coming from, where your lenses are. That that hopefully is a big enough trigger for me being able to go, oh god. I’m so sorry, Scott. I I really need to take a pause and think about that because I think I’ve been so caught up in my own head about things that I haven’t really stopped to think about what my shadow is on everyone else today. So I just wanna say, first of all, thank you for coming and being prepared to talk to me about it. And, and I’m really sorry that that’s how my actions had you feeling because I absolutely do value you, and I also want to create the best environment for you.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:40:08]:
So I need to probably go away and think about it because I didn’t stop to recognize that sooner. So thank you for letting me know. I’m gonna keep working on this, and please know that you’re valued, and please continue to call it out if I’m not doing what I need to do to create the best environment for you.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:24]:
Love it. Absolutely. I feel like we could talk about this forever. Yeah. But I kinda wanna I wanna double back to the very tactile tactical for a minute. And I’m gonna throw a couple scenarios at you. I’m sure you’ll knock them out of the park because I’m sure the listeners out there are facing one, if not both of these scenarios, and I’d love to hear your input on them. And the first one is, of course, the common all coworker on coworker conflict.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:53]:
How do we go about navigating this thing, especially when it gets heated? And, I mean, like, really heated. I’d love to hear your input on on this scenario.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:41:04]:
Okay. Gosh. Alright. I mean, this is why they wrote the book. Right? Because there’s, like, there’s a lot of detail to go through. So there might be a, yes, the answer is read the book. But look, so I would say to people, but like let’s do a pre getting to that point. So let’s do a pre getting to that point.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:41:19]:
The pre getting to that point is going back to the stuff that I was talking about before about how do you build connection with others. So how do you consciously do this and within it also create a common language with people. So you’re kind of going, right, here’s some rituals that we have in our team. We always find out what we have in common with each other, so we see each other as humans. I’m going to give you some skills in how you give good feedback to each other so that we all concentrate on giving, playing to people’s strengths and acknowledging people’s strengths, so that we keep seeing each other as humans, so that the point at which we disagree because we will disagree because we wear different lenses, We can actually go, but hang on a minute, I disagree with you, but actually I feel like I can talk to you about it because we’re connected and we’ve been given a framework or some language around how do I do this? How do I ask some questions around those things? But if you’re coming in then where so if you’ve got to the point where you’re recognizing it’s really heated between so let’s say we’re colleagues and it’s really it’s starting to go, oh my god, like we we have this elephant in front of us and no matter what, we just can’t seem to actually agree. And and even like I might be able to see the tension rising in you, but it doesn’t actually help to go, Scott, there’s tension in you and you need to let go and let’s kind of talk about it because you’re like, what? We’re more offensive. Whereas the ability to say, and again, this is why common language is important because it’s be able to go, I’m just recognizing that we have this massive big elephant between us and we don’t seem to be able to get anywhere with ourselves, we need help. So how about we both go and chat to our manager and get them to help us to navigate through this so that you can then go and now you might then also go, actually, it’s another colleague.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:43:04]:
It’s a colleague who’s Switzerland who, you know, could be useful to help you do that. And so that’s kind of going sometimes when it gets that intense, you might need a third party or actually step back from that, that I that there are times where I’ve said to someone, can we just pause at this moment? Because I’m feeling the cortisol. So again, common language, I’m feeling the cortisol coming really high within me, and I’m I’m concerned they’re gonna end up saying something that I regret, and I don’t really wanna do that. So I just need to pause, and I need a break to go away and just take a break before we go back to the conversation. Now it could even be that you’re the one that’s lost it and getting angry, and I’m yet still calm, but actually it’s useful for me to go, I need a break because the cortisol is rising in me. Can we stop? So can we cause a break and then come back? Can we get a third party to come in? And and the most important thing within this is saying, what I need to do if I’m feeling that tension rise with you is going, how do I elicit oxytocin and serotonin with you and keep coming back to those to try and help you calm the cortisol down so that we can get curious together? Because ultimately that’s what I want is that ability to go, here’s this elephant. How can I be the bigger person to start with to go, here’s this elephant and we’re not seeing eye to eye on it? I just I’m curious to understand more. So at the moment, Scott, here’s what I understand from you.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:44:28]:
So rather than going, and I think this, it’s here’s what I hear from you. Can you help me understand that a little bit more? And I just really wanna listen to that and get that in a sense. And then how about we then go, okay. How do we then listen from another perspective? But let me understand your perspective deeply and genuinely sit there and go, how do I listen to that person and truly try and understand their perspective so that you feel seen and heard and that you matter for the view that you have. When you’ve come down to then go, oh, I actually been able to say that And I’m going, so okay, Scott. So what I understand more is this, this, this, and this. And actually, here’s all the things we agree on. So it looks like we agree on this, this, this, this, this, and this.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:45:11]:
And it looks like we might be using different language, but I agree, like, different but it looks like this is the challenge. Is it okay? Could I now give you a different perspective there? And then off we go with that different perspective and try again. It’s that getting curious. And again, if you then go, getting a bit tense, you’re going, okay. Do we need a break? Do we need a third party? Because a third party can be the one that says, okay. How do we find a break here? Or how do I help you both listen to each other and go, right. Okay. I feel heard and seen.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:45:41]:
We’ve found what we’ve got in common. We found the butt of where we disagree. Can we actually work out our way around it so that there’s a way in which we end up finding a common way through? That’s I mean, look, I can go on for longer, but that does that help to kind of give a

Scott McCarthy [00:45:57]:
Absolutely. And what I love about this is and identify something which I didn’t hear, which is probably the most important thing. And you know what I didn’t hear? You were wrong. Right? In which I refer to as the blame game.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:46:14]:
Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:46:15]:
Because when when we play the blame game, no one wins. Like, there’s no winner other than that. And and how often we find people in these these conversations, in these conflicts where they’re, like, so set on winning. Like, right. But you’re missing the point. There there’s no winning. There is no winning here.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:46:33]:
There is no winning. And think about it sorry. Go ahead.

Scott McCarthy [00:46:38]:
Yeah. And what I love about everything you said was it was solution focused. Like, it’s it’s not it’s not about the individuals per se, but rather the conflict, identifying the conflict and looking to dissolve the conflict. Right? Not solving the people that are involved with it. That’s what I like about it. Right?

Genevieve Hawkins [00:46:59]:
Yeah. So one of the principles I talk about in the book is this idea of accept multiple truths. One of the hardest things for people to do, but that ability to go rather than going because it’s people either say you’re wrong or they go, I’m right. I’m right. This is it. When someone’s doing that, what you need to be patient and compassionate about is that what that means is that there’s a hollow cortisol in their body. They’re feeling fear because their view of the world is being challenged and that challenge feels uncomfortable. And so the way that they’ve learned to navigate is to do just, you know, bed down under their lenses and going, this is it.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:47:38]:
I’m right. We want them to get curious. We want them to get curious about alternatives, but they can’t switch from cortisol fueled to curious. You can’t just go straight away like that. You’ve gotta get through and get some serotonin and oxytocin happening in their brains to get them to a better space before they have a capacity to truly get curious about a different perspective.

Scott McCarthy [00:48:03]:
Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I love the the science aspect that you’re bringing to this show today. It’s phenomenal. The final one, which I think is probably you probably already answered it because I feel like the framework that you gave me was just applicable, and that is

Genevieve Hawkins [00:48:18]:
the only answer give the scenario and answer it and see see how you’re going.

Scott McCarthy [00:48:21]:
Yeah. Like, so the leader and the subordinate and the conflict there. Right? I I feel like the framework which you just said is just just as applicable.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:48:31]:
As what you could read. The same. Yeah. And and the key thing that the the extra that I would add, like, when you’ve got colleagues that are in in argument, then then you have to be the person that chooses to step up first. With a leader, you have no choice. You are the one that has to step up first. So your role, and so I kinda go find safety for yourself first. So recognize that this person presses your buttons and go, okay, what am I doing from where’s my support network? What are the things that I do to get energy so that I don’t, you know, I haven’t come in running late caught in traffic, kids are sick, had an argument, and then I’m coming into this person that drives me nuts.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:49:16]:
So that piece around going, how do I actually make sure that I come into a conversation feeling my best self and feeling safe within myself so that I can then go, okay. I wanna get so you’re you’re the person who reports to me. I wanna get you curious, but clearly something’s happening that I have not been able to get enough serotonin and oxytocin with you first to get you feeling okay in order to then get curious about how do we how we disagree about things. And so, I need to then consciously go who’s got the human being, and how do I actually try and connect and help understand you and what you need in order to then go, okay, let’s now get curious together about this. And look, sure there are there’s moments where the individual says, well, I disagree. You know, this is what we should do. Now the question there for me is one of, again, getting getting curious about yourself within it. So if you’re then going, but this is the way it has to be, I’d say, ask yourself the question, what if you were wrong? What if actually what that person suggesting is actually a useful thing? And are you caught in, but this is the way I’ve always done it? But here’s someone who actually perhaps might have some expertise that you don’t recognize, or they have got a different perspective that means that it could work differently, where you need to let go yourself of feeling right and actually listen, truly listen to them, and maybe perhaps adopt and change and do something that that they wanna do.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:50:51]:
Or if you’re sitting there going, okay, there’s something getting in the way of them accepting that this is the way that needs to be. To be able to have that again, this curious conversation going, Scott, I’m really curious here. I’m hearing you that you’d prefer to do x y zed. And I really understand that that’s where you’re more comfortable doing it. What I need you to do, and again, it’s from a calm perspective, it’s not an I’m right perspective. It’s this curious perspective of going, well, so now you’d like to do it this way. In the context of some other moving parts that are going on, I need to actually get you to do it this way. But I sense each time I suggest that, that what I see is another disagreement from you or another thing that means you shouldn’t do that.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:51:37]:
Help me understand what’s going underneath that. So help me understand is one of the those best kind of inquiry things to do going just help me understand what is it that’s happening there and how do we dig deeper to try and understand what’s needed for you as a leader to unlock the potential on this other person?

Scott McCarthy [00:51:54]:
I wanna highlight something real quick here, and that was help me understand. I think saying those words that way is uber crucial because Yeah. If I turn around, there’s another way for me to say that, and that is, why do you think that way?

Genevieve Hawkins [00:52:13]:
And you’re, what? Defense. Defense. Defense.

Scott McCarthy [00:52:16]:
Right? Yeah. So for the listener out there, avoid the why question at all costs. And it’s actually way earlier you mentioned but. I was at a training once, and we had discussed speaker and he talked about, you know, words to avoid, and he used but. And he’s like, and don’t use however. It’s just but in a tuxedo. Yeah.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:52:36]:
I love that.

Scott McCarthy [00:52:37]:
Huffmanhole. Right?

Genevieve Hawkins [00:52:38]:
I got I feel like I need to I need to have that, I need to post about this.

Scott McCarthy [00:52:42]:
You gotta keep that one in

Genevieve Hawkins [00:52:43]:
your back pocket. Oh, it’s so good.

Scott McCarthy [00:52:46]:
However, it’s just a button, a tuxedo. I was like, wow. That will

Genevieve Hawkins [00:52:49]:
never leave you. Good. And it’s so because it is that it doesn’t we’re rationalizing. What we’re trying to do is rationalizing our view. Mhmm. And and ultimately and I mean, this is this is about personal relationships. This is about work. This is about the world as a whole.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:53:03]:
We need to be more curious in the type of complexity that we face as a world. We need to be more curious with each other. But to do that, we just need to feel safer with each other first and be able to be okay that it’s okay if my world shifts in some way, shape or form. And it may mean, sometimes you’re like, well, I was wearing one pair of lenses, now I’m wearing another and I’ve learned a different way. When, you know, particularly in leadership roles, when you’re finding yourself thinking, but I’m right, is that good warning signal to yourself to go, your lenses are telling you that there’s one truth, take a deep breath because there are multiple truths, there are multiple perspectives on the elephant and you need to get curious to understand and respect that different people have different views on that elephant. And no one’s right or wrong because no one has the total view.

Scott McCarthy [00:54:03]:
You know what? I’m gonna wrap this up with a question to you, and this I think you’re gonna love this. What’s the date?

Genevieve Hawkins [00:54:08]:
What’s what’s the date today, the November 27 in 2024?

Scott McCarthy [00:54:17]:
It’s twenty sixth November twenty twenty four.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:54:19]:
Oh, twenty sixth for you. I love that. Oh my god. I suck I love that.

Scott McCarthy [00:54:27]:
So so for the listener, you’re not necessarily 100% clueing in, but Genevieve is in Australia. I’m in Canada. It is something like fourteen hours, fifteen hours time zone difference. So she’s in twenty seventh November as of this recording, and I’m still in ’26. I hope the world is a brighter place in the future, by the way.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:54:50]:
Well, so here’s the other thing too, isn’t it? Because obviously, they’re going, it’s hot right now. Like, it’s hot. We’re expecting 29. Oh, no. It’s already 28.

Scott McCarthy [00:54:56]:
Yeah. No. It’s just freaking cold.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:54:59]:
Crazy. Yeah. Isn’t that but such a beautiful simple example there, Scott. I so love that because that’s just that simple example saying the different lenses. And we were and so right now, our environments, we’ve got different truths, and both of them are right. Yeah. Beautiful. Love that as a way to end.

Scott McCarthy [00:55:18]:
Okay. So, you know, is there anything we haven’t touched today that the listener should?

Genevieve Hawkins [00:55:23]:
I think we could keep talking about lots and lots of of different things. It’s such a a big topic, but I hope that there’s some nuggets of gold in there that have people thinking about that some good practical things I can do straight away.

Scott McCarthy [00:55:35]:
No. Absolutely. And I think there normally, I I wrap up with a question of, you know, some practical applicability, but you’ve nailed this whole show. So we’ll wrap up with the final thing of the show, and that is how can people find you, follow you, be part of your journey. It’s shameless plug time for you, so have at it.

Genevieve Hawkins [00:55:51]:
Oh god. I’m not very good at this. So, you can find my books. I’ve got two books, Mentally at Work and Shrinking Elephants, on your favorite online bookstore. You can find me at jenaviehawkins.com.au, and you can find me as jenavie hawkins on LinkedIn. You can find me as mentally at work on Instagram.

Scott McCarthy [00:56:05]:
That’s awesome. And for you, the listeners always, it’s easy. Just go to the show notes this episode, and you’ll see the guest resources there, and all the links are there for you. So check them out. Give her a follow. Grab a copy of the book because it’s awesome. I’ve gone through it. Thank you again for a copy.

Scott McCarthy [00:56:22]:
I really appreciate it. And Thanks, Scott. Thanks for coming

Genevieve Hawkins [00:56:25]:
out. I love this conversation. So good.